Winning On Points
Jay Cost at Real Clear Politics:
From this, I would suggest that, as a prelude to unifying the party, both sides need to be a little modest.
The Clinton people need to recognize that it is not coincidence that Obama’s vote was more efficient. I have discussed this before. Part of this had to do with the fact that the delegate allocation system contains biases that happened to favor Obama. However, part of it had to do with the fact that the Obama campaign had a better understanding of the system. It found the possibilities and made the most of them. What’s more, the Clinton campaign let it do this. Simply put, Obama out-maneuvered Clinton. Clinton supporters need to respect this.
Meanwhile, Obama supporters need to recognize that their candidate is the victor not because he put together a majority coalition, but because he out-maneuvered Clinton. This was a highly intelligent strategy, but it was not a grand feat of majority building. Obama supporters need to recognize that their candidate won not because “the people had their say,” but because his campaign out-smarted her campaign. Accordingly, they need to respect the candidate whom they could not beat in a straight-up fight for votes.
- Original article
- FILED UNDER: Guest Blogger
- June 5, 2008
Give me a break...
...."Accordingly, they need to respect the candidate whom they could not beat in a straight-up fight for votes."
So the Michigan votes count in your book? (I guess that 300,000+ to 0 vote count didn't schew your totals---just the will of the people right?)
AR, you need to revoke Guerillas' "guest blogger" credentials or give them to huff....same guy.
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By SgtDJune 5, 2008 - 9:43amHow do you expect a candidate
to get votes if he takes himself off the ballot? Do you want him to claim imaginary votes? Now that is cheating.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 10:38amHey Guerilla or hufflary or whatever...
....you go by these days....your candidate's words are being used in a RNC internet commercial to discredit Obama.
She says TWICE in the commercial that McCain is more qualified to be president.....hope you Clintards are happy huff. You guys aren't about the democratic party or being progresive you're all about Hillary....in other words your trying to ensure a McCain win.
Looks like alot of Clintards are regaining their senses...why don't you?
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By SgtDJune 6, 2008 - 12:13amYou already ensured a McCain win by nominating
Obama. I dont know what the hell you are talking about. I am voting for Obama. Many Clinton supporters wont.
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By hufflarry2000June 6, 2008 - 6:32amI'm glad you're voting for Obama...
....I'm thinking most HC dupporters will as well. I understand the hard feelings but that shouldn't drive folks to vote for McCain when HC and Obama are pretty damned similar on MOST issues. Just doesn't make a bit of sense IMO...
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By SgtDJune 6, 2008 - 7:18amPuffer, you moron ...
His name was off the ballot because ALL CANDIDATES SIGNED A PLEDGE TO NOT CAMPAIGN AND NOT PUT THEIR NAMES ON THE BALLOTS.
Shrillary decided to RENEGE ON HER PLEDGE when she realized she LOST. She was grasping at straws, Puffer, SHE WANTED TO CHANGE THE RULES WHEN SHE REALIZED SHE LOST.
THAT'S CHEATING.
“It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!” - Lewis Black
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By Pookie2112June 6, 2008 - 8:19amYa know...
...in hindsight it was a bad call on the Obama folks by taking him off the ballot in Michigan.
They should have realized who they were dealing with when they saw Hillary still on the ballot.
I'm thinking even had Obama "lost" he still would have picked up enough votes to make this a mute point...ie he would have "won" the overall popular vote. Would have taken away the Hillbots talking point....
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By SgtDJune 6, 2008 - 8:30amHindsight is ALWAYS 20/20
But, I'm thinking they took him off out of good faith to the pledge they all signed. I'm guessing the Obama staff was willing to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt that she would play by the rules as well ... but we and they found out differently.
I agree but I don't think Obama & Co. would have acted the way Hillary & Co. have when they realized he would lose. I don't know which talking point is more obnoxious "the popular vote" or "18 million supporters" - they both equally get under my skin.
“It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!” - Lewis Black
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By Pookie2112June 6, 2008 - 10:10amI guess we can look at...
...HC v Obama as a great primer for the general election. I'm sure Obama's crew has a learned a great deal taking on the Clinton's....I don't think McCains folks will be able to throw them for a loop.
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By SgtDJune 6, 2008 - 10:19amThat's exactly how I've been looking at it.
And I've been very impressed by how he and his campaign have handled the attacks - immediately, calmly and cooly, diplomatically and hits hard with the truth.
There are two things that really sticks in my mind about the coming season - one being the crap flying around the internet, which people think that if it's on the internet, it must be true. The other being the swiftboating that is guaranteed to happen. I haven't seen a ton of slandering yet, but I'm confident that the "he's a muslim" bullshit will really gear up now.
“It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!” - Lewis Black
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By Pookie2112June 6, 2008 - 10:56amI have no problem respecting Hillary and her supporters
but I would expect the same kind of respect in return. What do we see instead? Whining, crying, anger, and a vow to vote for McCain or not vote at all.
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 9:57amHillary supporters KNOW that Obama cant win.
That is one of the biggest reasons we support her! That is why we are pissed that you libtards have handed the election to the Reps...Again. It does not matter who Hillary supporters vote for now.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 10:37amPuffer, please clarify ...
"you libtards have handed the election to the Reps...Again"
And, who, exactly, did us "libtards" hand the election to in what election?
"Bitch may be the new black but black is the new President, bitch."
Tracy Morgan, SNL
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By Pookie2112June 5, 2008 - 12:22pmEvery Dem has lost
in the last 30 years but CLINTON!
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:45pmOkay, brain surgeon ...
Does that mean that you've always voted Repug until Clinton came along?
"Bitch may be the new black but black is the new President, bitch."
Tracy Morgan, SNL
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By Pookie2112June 5, 2008 - 2:01pmI have never, ever voted for
a Republican and wont this time.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 2:43pmOkay, so since you've always voted Dem ... and Dems always lose
because of "libtards", by your definition, that would make you a libtard as well, fruit loop.
“It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!” - Lewis Black
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By Pookie2112June 5, 2008 - 2:53pmI have been a libtard
in the past, but no more. I have finally learned from the many defeats. Unfortunately, the minority of the party has not. At least most Dems voted for Hillary as the nominee. That shows some promise.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 3:05pm"At least most Dems voted for Hillary as the nominee"
If that were true, she'd be the nominee now, wouldn't she?
Puffer, you can call me anything your cold little heart desires ... I don't give a shit.
“It’s absolutely stupid that we live without an ozone layer. We have men, we’ve got rockets, we’ve got saran wrap – FIX IT!!!” - Lewis Black
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By Pookie2112June 5, 2008 - 3:47pmBy UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 10:57am
Exactly. For the vast majority of Hillary supporters that respect the primary process and will work with me to get our nominee elected, my respect won't be a question. As far as I'm concerned, it was a robust and close primary and while I have problems with the way Hillary ran her campaign, I'm sure the same could be said by others with regards to Obama. Fine. Water under the bridge.
But I will never give my respect to those who demand it with nothing in return, those who would support McCain out of spite, and defeatists. Fuck them. We'll do it without them and be stronger for it.
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By frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 11:29amBy frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 12:29pm
Yes, by calling me a "libtard" and other "colorful" names because I DIDN'T support Hillary, is just the way to win respect. Sure, IF Hillary won, I wouldn't have been pleased but I still would have voted for her in the general, because I'm looking at the bigger picture. Unfortunately, the whining and crying coming from the other side, leads me to believe that this election was all about HILLARY and NOT THE COUNTRY .
"Bitch may be the new black but black is the new President, bitch."
Tracy Morgan, SNL
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By Pookie2112June 5, 2008 - 12:18pmWHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?!
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 11:19amIt is called reality
get back on your meds prof 9-11.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 11:24amWHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?!
OH MY GOD!!
I PREDICTED THIS!
AAR and "SUSIE the Suburban Guerilla" (WHOEVER THE FUCK SHE IS)... IS CONSPIRING TO ILLEGITIMIZE THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT...
... "SUSIE the Suburban Guerilla" IS ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING AGAINST OUR DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE ON AIR AMERICA RADIO WEB SERVERS!!!!!!!!
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.
.
.WOW... I don't know what to say... I've never seen ANYTHING LIKE THIS in my life, BUT I PREDICTED IT!!!
I PREDICTED THIS WOULD HAPPEN THE MINUTE Barak Obama THREATENED TO ENFORCE THE SHERMAN ANTI-TRUST ACT AGAINST MEDIA CONGLOMERATES.
========================
Guess what "Susie"... you and your you're "Suburban Guerilla" crap-site just became my new project.
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.
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 11:29amI am sure "Susie" is just as mad
at you fucking libtards for nominating another losing candidate as most Hillary supporters are. I have seen you deluded morons do this crap every 4 years. You just cant learn or just like losing.
You have no power to do a damn thing, libtard. Your threats to her blog are a joke.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 11:36amshut up.
you're irrelevent.
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 11:40amBy hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:36pm
Do you really believe Obama has no chance? I think he's pretty ok. I even think he's got a better shot than Hillary would have had. There were just too many that thought of Hillary as an annoying, self-important elitist.
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By Kill-WhiteyJune 5, 2008 - 12:18pmBy Kill-WhiteyJune 5, 2008 - 1:18pm
Now that the primary has ended there will be any number of wingnuts joining larry in a chorus with myriad reasons a Democrat won't win. They seem to believe it discourages us, the Democratic base, and gives some sort of advantage to McCain. It's nothing we haven't seen before.
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By frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 12:23pmBy frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 1:23pm
While I have seen some Democrats say they either won't vote since Hillary didn't get the nod, and some even say they'd rather vote for McCain, I really think those people are in the minority this time around. Not to mention the massive "independent" electorate that I think will be voting as far away from Bush as possible, even if that means voting for a turnip.
So far I think Obama's only real weakness is in his associations with folks like Rezko and the Rev. Wright. And, while I do believe those will play a role, I just don't see them stopping Obama (although before the Rev. Wright thing came up, I thought he had it in the bag, after it looks like he's going to have to work for it). Just my two bits.
How bout you Huff? Willing to vote for Obama?
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By Kill-WhiteyJune 5, 2008 - 12:36pmI absolutely believe Obama will lose
that is why I was so much for Hillary. She would have pulverized McCain as the polls show. Obama may have a small chance if Hillary is VP, but I doubt it. I will be voting for Obama.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:44pmThe last CNN/Gallup poll says otherwise
Obama-McCain: Obama 49-44
Clinton-McCain: Clinton 48-44
Poll margin of error 4%
Damn those facts! :)
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 1:11pmAnd that poll should say
Obama 65% McCain 30%. But it doesnt, it is basically a tie. Doesnt that worry you? The vast majority of people are not even paying attention yet. Wait till the swift boating starts. Hillary would have given them just as much grief, probably more than the Reps could dish out.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 1:24pmChanging your tune now that I showed the latest poll
proving that there is statistically no difference whether Hillary or Obama goes up against McCain?
I think that now that there is one single nominee, you will see Obama start to pull away from McCain. He can spend all of his time beating on the old man now. In fact, he has been doing that for the past few weeks, and it is already paying off. The same poll conducted a few weeks earlier showed McCain ahead of Obama.
The old man is in for a beating. Now the only question is do you want to be one of he people holding the stick that beats him, or do you want to stand on the sidelines and complain that if you had a better stick you could beat him even better?
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 1:37pmI dont believe Obama will win
He will lose badly in the electoral college. No stick is going to beat McCain, no way no how. It is already over.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 1:44pmFor someone who supported a candidate who absolutely
never gave up, no matter how dire the situation looked, you sure are a defeatist. Take a cue from Hillary, grow a backbone, and get in there and fight to beat McCain. I don't see Hillary saying that it's all over, and that we might as well inaugurate McCain right now.
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 2:20pmI am sick of getting my hopes up
for these horrible, wimpy, losing candidates. Obama is the worst yet! We had a sure winner, but as usual we pick the sure loser. I am over this bullcrap! I will vote for Obama as I do all the long list of Dem losers.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 2:41pmNo one is asking you to get your hopes up.
What we are asking is that you don't just plain quit. If everyone whose candidate lost in the primary felt the same way, then we'd all be in a lot of trouble, no matter what party you are in. I'm sure there are also lots of Ron Paul, Mittens and Huckleberry supporters out there who are disappointed that McCain is their nominee, but unfortunately, I think they may just come out and vote for Great Grandpa anyway. THAT is why the repubs win. Their eleventh commandment, straight from the mouth of Ronny Raygun tells them "Thou shalt not criticize another republican". That means they always keep in mind that the REAL enemy is the other party, not each other.
How many times has your primary candidate actually been the nominee? Unless you have luck that the average Vegas cardshark would envy, I would imagine your candidate has lost more than won. That's life, and everyone has that very same experience. Just remember, maybe you lost this battle, but if you don't actively do something to help the nominee now, you will help lose the entire war. Maybe you'll feel differently in a month or two, and you will be ready to more enthusiastically fight for a dem president and congress in the fall. I hope that is the case.
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 2:54pmLike I said
I will vote for Obama and donate to his campaign.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 3:01pmThat's a good start
If you can show even half the fighting spirit for Obama that you showed for Hillary, we'll all be drinking champagne and celebrating a dem sweep in November. Just think, 4 years to gloat against hatey, froggy and the rest!
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 3:11pmBy Uffdaguy June 5, 2008 - 4:11pm
"...we'll all be drinking champagne and celebrating...
I'm doing just that...on Saturday as I watch Hillary's concession speech. We've won the conference championship, now it's time to go to the big game!
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By ExpatinEUJune 5, 2008 - 3:33pmI will do all
that I can to elect Obama. I live in Cleveland, one of the few Obama strongholds in Ohio. I will not have to convince many people around here to vote for him. In the rest of Ohio, that is a different story. Hillary is VERY popular here and having her on the ticket to unify the party would be a BIG help. I dont see how Obama wins states like Ohio without her on the ticket. I believe that is his only chance.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 3:34pmI have trouble believing some of the projections based on
what I see here. CNN keeps putting MN for McCain possibly, but Obama won by a huge margin here, and this is a very anti-Bush state. They say we have a repub governor, which they think will help, but he is very unpopular now, and so is Coleman, who is going down to defeat when Franken clubs him.
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By UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 3:39pmMN should be strong for Obama
I just worry about my part of the country (OH, MI, PA). The racism here is prevalent and appalling. Bush is despised here but I dont know if that is enough for Obama to win here. I just dont know. It is FAR too early to know. I know that Hillary would have won these 3 states easily.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 3:50pmBy UffdaguyJune 5, 2008 - 2:11pm
Defeatists don't need no stink'n facts ... they intrude on their fantasy lives.
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By frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 1:31pmBy Kill-WhiteyJune 5, 2008 - 1:36pm
Talk to those that say they'll sit out in a month. I imagine you'll find their attitude has changed. I don't see how it is possible to support Hillary's positions and sit by and do nothing to prevent a McCain presidency. As for those that will vote for McCain ... they're a lost cause but will be easily balanced if folks like Barr and Paul make it on the ticket in a lot of states.
As for Obama's associations, he's running against a candidate with plenty of his own. Seems the media is no longer looking the other way from McCain and his lobbyist campaign advisers. I don't see either candidate suffering very much in the general from associations.
The two parties are going to stay in their own camps for the most part (although, if I'm a Republican I'm worried that Paul still has quite a bit of support out there). In the end, I think you're right: it is the Independent vote that will decide the election. I think that in that respect, McCain is in a lot of trouble with Bush, Iraq, the economy, and his voting record. (He voted with Bush 95% of the time and '07 and hasn't strayed once in '08; he's going to be hard pressed to maintain that Maverick image on which he so desperately depends.)
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By frazzledJune 5, 2008 - 12:53pmObama lost the
Democratic Base Voters to Hillary in the primaries. You have never won before, except when a Clinton was running.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:54pmHEY SUSIE!
EXCUSE ME, BUT THE ONLY WAY TO WIN, according to the rules, THAT HAROLD ICKES WROTE AND HILLARY CLINTON SIGNED OFF ON...
... IS TO WIN MORE FUCKING DELEGATES THAN THE OTHER GUY.
=================================
YOU MOTHERFUCKERS HAVE MOVED THE GOAL POSTS SO MANY TIMES THAT YOU HAVE MADE A FUCKING MOCKERY OF THE OUR ONCE GREAT DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING SELF-INDULGENT, NARCISSISTIC JERKOFF.
.
=================================
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 11:42amLet's see, libtard
You accuse her of making a mockery of the Dem party, yet you want a candidate who will lose to lead the Dem party? It is complete bizzarro world.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 11:44amgluehuffer.
you're nothing but a piece of dog shit I scrape off my shoe.
.
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 12:03pmI am sure you step
in alot of shit, moron. You are covered in shit.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:06pmI WIN.
YOU LOSE.
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 12:52pmNow we all lose
you deluded moron.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:56pmI WIN!
YOU LOSE!
THE ONLY WAY TO WIN, ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT HAROLD ICKES WROTE AND HILLARY CLINTON SIGNED OFF ON...
... IS TO WIN MORE FUCKING DELEGATES THAN THE OTHER GUY!!
==================================
DELEGATES REQUIRED FOR VICTORY: 2118
OBAMA DELEGATES THIS HOUR: 2181
CLINTON DELEGATES THIS HOUR: it no longer matters! - nobody cares!
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.
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By A GJune 5, 2008 - 1:00pmThe majority(Hillary voters)
of Dems care very much.
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 1:03pmNot really
...since she LOST, based on the NUMBERS.
Are you now trying to tell us that because the RULES didn't favor your candidate, the RULES should be changed on-the-fly? Yes, you certainly are.
The boat hit the ice and sank. Get over it.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
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By nonexistent manJune 5, 2008 - 6:59pmHey Susie...
How's that war vote treating you? I bet Hillary wishes she could take that one back. And guess what...it has nothing to do with winning on points.
You lost! Get over it...
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By ExpatinEUJune 5, 2008 - 12:09pmHillary voted to end the war
Obama did not bother to show up for that vote. Damn facts!
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By hufflarry2000June 5, 2008 - 12:12pmBy hufflarry2000 June 5, 2008 - 1:12pm
Hillary voted for the f#$%ing war to begin with!
Damn FACTS!
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By ExpatinEUJune 5, 2008 - 12:14pmhufflarry2000: Hillary voted to end the war
So that's what the "EMERGENCY" WAR SUPPLEMENTALS withOUT benchmarks or timelines were for.
We stand corrected.
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By SingSingJune 5, 2008 - 4:06pmBrilliant!!! So who's for HAVA repeal and 1-2-3 Voting? Shhh...
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
There was more than STRATEGERY involved in, although the millions of small online contributions was as historic as the fact that a racially inferior self bootstrap elevating HARVARD LAW JOURNAL editor was selected over a MULTIMILLION-HEIRESS ENTRENCHED BELTWAY CESSPOOL DWELLING DLC NAFTA NWO WTO HAWKISH QUASI-BLUE-DOG BAGGAGE LADEN DYNASTIC OLIGARCHY House of Saud connected IRAN-CONTRA linked Lieberman loven survivor of tarmac sniper fire, the BALLOT TABULATION in NH and NYC, etc., was BLATANTLY TAMPERED WITH.
The bottom line is that ACCOUNTABILITY is NOT an option.
The fact that YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, yet there is NO SUSTAINED OUTRAGE is a direct consequence of the LACK of any consequences for VIOLATING the OATH of OFFICE taken by the congress critters in the hill.
www.buzzflash.com/articles/hartmann/016
But stand by ...
www.gnn.tv/threads/7024/UNO_UPDATE_Exercise_To_Focus_On_Nuclear_Terror_S...
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By SingSingJune 5, 2008 - 1:58pm