Code: Pink! Bailout Protest in New York
At four o' clock this afternoon in New York City's oldest park, Bowling Green, the activist group Code Pink Woman for Peace hopes hundreds of Americans will come on down to pile their trash at Wall Street: "No Cash for Trash" is their clarion call.
The group is protesting the proposed government bailout that would earmark $700 billion of taxpayer dough to bail out banks that caused "the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression."
Code Pink co-founder Jodie Evans came by the Air America offices yesterday to talk to Laura Flanders on Grit TV. She visited the newsroom on her way out. "We want people to bring their 8-track tape collection, high-school yearbooks, Grampa's old recliner, and that snow globe from Great Adventure theme park," she said.
Other items Evans suggested: mortgage statements and student loan invoices. "We want Paulson to bail us out, too!"
Code Pink contends that Paulson's plain will only "save George W. Bush's cronies on Wall Street, the same people who created America's financial crisis and helped fund war and violation of rights."
"This is a financial Sept. 11," said Jodie Evans. "Just like the White House used that moment of shock to institute abusive surveillance and policing powers under the Patriot Act, it's trying to use this economic meltdown to lavish taxpayer money on the same banks that made obscene profits off shady mortgage industry practices. And true to form, the Bush administration proposed giving itself vast new powers, this time over the economy, with absolutely no oversight."
It's a good time to clean out your closet (if you happen to be in New York City). Organize a junk pile in your neighborhood. Tell Paulson we need a little more information before we hand over a blank check to the very same people who caused the crisis.
Just buy it!
.
I think if they follow Obama's eight point plan, it might not be such a disaster.
Some of the things he outlined included:
No golden parachutes
Profit goes back to the taxpayers
Oversight
True, Paulson did submit a three page document that not only excluded oversight, but also said he couldn't be held accountable if this mess doesn't work out.
That's the thing to understand about politics. When something is first submitted, it is a wish list of what you "hope" to get. Once it's been submitted, the real work begins. You know, negotiation, study and compromise?
As children of privilege and wealth, people such as Bush and McCain don't understand these things. They don't "get it". They never had to really work and achieve based on personal merits. It’s not a slam; it’s just the way it is. They want something, they buy it.
Fuck code pink, they're just
Fuck code pink, they're just trying to remain relevant.
Fuck Algore too.
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSTRE48N7AA20080924
Gore urges civil disobedience to stop coal plants
Oh, but only from young people says Algore. Why only young people Algore? Oh, because people like Algore can't be bothered to practice what they preach! Moments after the interview Algore hopped on his private jet and yelled "Algore AWAYYYYYYY" upon takeoff.
Damn, I'm glad W. whipped his ass in 2000!
Bush is a hero
Me, too. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to build a fundamentalist Islamic government that has written "Islam" into their constitution as the "national religion". We wouldn't have been able to support them in decimating their own Christian population. Oh those pesky Christians. Once we are gone, the good peole of Iraq will finally be able to finish the job and get rid of those pests.
And all because of us. So be proud at what Bush has done for this country and for the hard core Islamic fundmentalists of Iraq..
Again, you show you are againstt
Iraqi self determination. So, by your post, you believe we should "install" a puppet regime in Iraq, instead of letting them choose their own form of government. You really suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome.
News flash for hatey....we installed a puppet regime in Iraq
years ago. When they chose a president we didn't like, we let them know about it, and they chose someone we approved of, Maliki. When they objected to walls going up in Baghdad to produce sectarian divides, we told them it was going to happen anyway, and they backed down. When they tell us over and over again that they want us to leave, we stay anyway. They've got more puppets in their government than there are Muppets!
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
I suggest you take your argument
to deandd. He apparently disagrees with your assessment.
I suggest you look up the definition of "sarcasm" in the
dictionary, as that was the tone of dean's post.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By notjfroggSeptember 25, 2008 - 1:24pm
That's what is great about you. You stay in line and never cause trouble.
Keep doing what your betters tell you and you will be free.
LOL
Pffft!... Jackass.
"Damn, I'm glad W. whipped his ass in 2000!"
Yeah, that was quite the ass whipping.
All it took was for Dubya to:
1) LOSE the popular vote BY HALF A MILLION VOTES!
2) Have the head of his Florida campaign arbitrarily stop the vote count (the Florida State Attorney General was Dubyas Florida campaign chief??!!... NOPE!... NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST THERE, EH??!!)
3) Have the Supreme Court (stacked with right-wing KOOKS like Scalia and Thomas) appoint him president.
Yeah, that was quite an ass whipping... Not exactly Ali-Frazier, now was it?
You are a liar, AG
The United States Supreme Court found, by a 7 to 2 vote, that Florida changed the rules after the election, by selecting primarily democratic counties for the recount, instead of the entire state. That is an historical fact that you are well aware of. Which makes your post propaganda, and shows, unequivocally, that you are willing to lie to further your Neo-Com agenda.
By momofukuSeptember 25, 2008 - 2:26pm
Spammer you posted more irrelevance.
Weren't you on this board mocking Edwards' Hair Cut a while back?
You've got nothing spammer. Get off our board banned one.
I love it when you play "make-believe".
That is, I love it when you make believe you're not a dunce.
That's not what the ruling you refer to said at all. You're not even close, shitbag.
Shall I explain it to you??
The final 7-2 SCOTUS ruling said that because different counties used differing local standards in evaluating the ballots, it violated the 14th Amendment "equal protection clause". However, that could have been remedied, had they been interested in having all the votes counted.
It was actually a seperate 5-4 ruling that simply shut down the recount and thereby APPOINTED Governor Shit-For-Brains President... and MY, OH MY, what a presidency it has been... WORST PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
Any way you cut it, shitbag, the Florida Supreme Court wanted all votes counted and Scalia wanted Bush as President.
Shit... the SCOTUS didn't even have jurisdiction and said as much in their opinion... and they had the fucking BALLS to talk about violating the constitution.
I stand by my statements.
P.S. Normally I would take offense at being called a liar. However, since I have no more regard for you than the dog shit I might scrape off my shoe, I couldn't care less.
... even as a troll, you're lame.
Yeah Yeah Yeah.
Who decided to only count democratic counties in the first place? You're stuck on stupid, dude.
Blow me.
.
Now, now.
If you want a bj, I suggest talk to pookie, or roadgoddess.
Never mind.
Your mother took care of me.
It's better with women who have no teeth.
Childish childish childish
I guess you would know.
Look at yourself and the drivel you post.
... and you call ME childish.
Blow it out your ass. You're a punk.
Maybe if the RepubliCANTs hadn't been so adamant
...in NOT getting Democratic counties recounted, SCOTUS wouldn't have stepped in and appointed Cowboy-hat Oathbreaker to the White House.
Why were the RepubliCANTs so afraid of a full recount, anyway? Maybe because it would have shown, without any doubt, that the Oathbreaker actually LOST?
Go back to playing with your Caribou Barbie doll, racist. You've shown up for a battle of wits, and you're completely unarmed.
Obama/Biden '08: the cure for electile dysfunction.
On their worst day those women are more relevant
Than you will ever be, you orangutang.
Free Market aborted
What's the wager on this cash being sent offshore at the speed of light?
The "Trickle Down" bailout fouls the nation.
Apperantly you don't agree with what the Democratic controlled
congress has done. Maybe you should voice your displeasure by sending Reid and Peloisi your resignation from the democratic party.
This is like the keating 5 all over again
And thank you code pink.
There is no debate as to whether we should bail out these firms. The debate is how to go about it.
When it comes to social programs for the little guy, it's all talking points from the right about tax and spend (while disregarding the massive spending of republicans in general) and a push for programs from the right. When we get these programs, the fight is often to get anything at all and what results is not ideal.
Now jump to the social programs for CEO's. We have no debate between parties about the bail out in terms of should we or shouldn't we. No. What we have is how much and what are the terms?
There is no representation for people who think the bail out should not occur.
Thank you code pink for getting out there and protesting. If we had more like you we wouldn't be in this mess.
Code Pink?
Bunch of nuts. Exactly what economic expertise do they have?
They couldn't POSSIBLY have LESS than Bush, who
ran every company he ran into the ground...or McCain, who worked tirelessly to eliminate regulations so we could have the unprecedented disaster we have today...or SC repub senator Jim DeMint, who proclaimed that the way to solve this problem is to cut personal and business taxes and eliminate even more regulations.
Compared to economic "geniuses" like that, how can ANYONE look worse?
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
McCain won't show. He's yellow
Bush explains how he has ruined the economy
Basically Bush is admitting what a mess he has made and that he needs congress to bail him out.
Ted Stevens defense team calls Stevens a man of honesty
Can they be charged with perjury?
Perjury? Hell, they have been invited to join the McCain
campaign!!!!
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By UffdaguySeptember 25, 2008 - 2:25pm
Sadly that is the truth.
Round-up of Daily Violence - Wednesday 24 September 2008
Al Qaida gunmen kill dozens of Iraqi policemen in Diyala provinc
That couldn't possibly be the same Diyala province where
Maliki's shiite government is busy arresting members of the Sunni Awakening, the group we paid to go after Al Qaeda, could it? A resurgence of Al Qaeda in a place where the group that got them under control is now being eliminated by the government? Defies all logic, doesn't it?
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By UffdaguySeptember 25, 2008 - 2:58pm
I do believe it is.
I wonder if this $700 billion will cut into the bribe money keeping the peace in Iraq?
naw,
the economy is fundamentally strong, we can spend tens or hundreds of billions, even trillions in all these diverse wastes with no ramifications. because we have no intentions of paying it back.
Murtha to be sued by Marine.
Sep 24, 2008 11:53 pm US/Eastern
Marine Plans To File Slander Suit Against Murtha
WASHINGTON, PA (KDKA) ― A local Marine cleared in the deaths of civilians in Iraq says Congressman John Murtha made public comments that were unproven, untrue and unfair.
Now, Lance Corporal Justin Sharratt is planning to file suit in federal court against Murtha on Thursday morning.
The suit accuses the congressman of slander and violating the Marine's right to a fair trial and due process.
Sharratt was one of eight Marines charged after 24 Iraqi civilians were killed in Haditha. He was charged with three counts of unpremeditated murder.
It's alleged in the lawsuit that before the outcome of the case, Congressman Murtha made slanderous comments.
Three years after the deaths, seven of eight Marines have been cleared, including Sharratt. There's now a website, JustinSharratt.com, to let the world know that he has been cleared.
The eighth Marine is still waiting for his day in court.
KDKA contacted Murtha's office for comment on this suit but there's no word back from them yet.
(© MMVIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)
By momofukuSeptember 25, 2008 - 2:52pm
That murderer's suit is going to get thrown out with the quickness.
Support the Troops.
End the Occupation.
He was exonerated in a court of law
which matters not to you Neo-Coms, who feel convicting one in the court of public opinion is sufficient enough to warrant a public hanging.
By momofukuSeptember 25, 2008 - 3:37pm
Although this was a court-martial & not a criminal court case, I must point out that OJ was exonerated of his murders, too. It's too bad that there's not a civil court that the families of Justin's civilian victims can take him to.
Support the Troops.
End the Occupation.
He was exonerated in a court of law
the same ones that allow this gitmo and torture bullshit to proceed? who cares, do whatever the fuck you want for the next fourty days. this is the end of your kind. we are establishing something here that will punt kick your marginalized band of nazis the fuck out of america. so, fuck off and die.
Hey commie:
You will not be establishing a communist state in this nation. Sorry, but you support a failed ideology, that, for your information, routinely tortures and murders it own citizens. Every country flying the commie flag has that as its history. Oh, I get it. You are so deluded that you believe it will be different this time. How pathetic.
And the capitalist nations do not have blood on their hands?
If bodycounts are your yardstick for failure, maybe you should see how many people were killed by the capitalist state during the English Rvolution of the 1640's or the French Revolution of the 1790's.
How about colonialism? The Slave Trade? The list of atrocities is endless.
A friend of mine once compared the bloodshed that occurred in communist countries to that inflicted by capitalism to a plane crash and a year of auto accidents. The plane crash gets the headlines even though the car crashes kill more people.
Besides, that " failed ideology" seems to be doing quite well in South America.
Dude, I can't believe you waste your breath...
I can't believe you waste keystrokes on assholes like this.
McCain and McMilf are DAZED, on the ropes, and going down.
GO IN FOR THE KILL.
DON'T BE DISTRACTED.
So, justifing bad behavior by citing other bad behavior?
The english revolution was not about capitalism, but more about abolishing the feudal system, as was the french revolution.
Whats the difference Japanese colonialism, Indian colonialism, Chinese colonialism, hell, colonialism as practiced through out history? None had anything to do capitalism, did they?
The slave trade had nothing to do with capitalism, per se. It started thousands of years ago, and only ended when the capitalistic western world outlawed it.
The big difference with communism, is that when the revolution is won, communists countries have a tendency to rape, torture, and murder their own citizens. Question: Why do communist countries not allow freedom of movement within their own borders? Why do they have a tendency not to let their own citizens travel to other countries, freely?
Wow...did YOU just open a can of worms on yourself...
Lessee...
RFID chips in passports.
Passports now required for travel to and from Mexico, Canada and most Caribbean countries.
The (misnamed) "REAL-ID" Act.
Need I continue here?
Papers, please?
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
You make no sense.
Berlin wall? Cuba? China? Vietnam?
What is your point about passports? You don't need permission to leave this country. You don't need permission to leave any western country. You don't need permission to move from state to state.
Real id act? What about it?
You have your blinders on.
When was the last time you tried going to Canada? Or Mexico? Or any Caribbean country?
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html
Do try to pay attention.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
You don't need a passport to leave the country.
You need a passport to enter another country, or to return to this country. You don't get shot for trying to leave here. You do in communist countries, or at least that is the tendency. Or at least you are jailed if caught.
How, exactly
...does one enter another country without first leaving this one?
Or perhaps you'd prefer to become the "man without a country" spoken of in classic literature. All you'd have to do is leave the country without a passport, then attempt to get back in.
Ever hear of this strange and wonderful thing called "logic"? It's quite useful. Try it sometime, racist.
You can't shake the devil's hand then say you're only kidding. ~~~TMBG
give me a break
Thats a circular argument and you know it. We do not need permission to leave this country. We do not get shot for leaving this country. We are not jailed for leaving this country. A passport is needed to enter other countries. That is by international law. And thats right. We as a country have the right to know who is entering this country. Its called the passport system.
By momofukuSeptember 28, 2008 - 3:40pm
Get off of our blog, shit for brains.
Support the Troops.
End the Occupation.
I keep trying to corral him onto one thread
but he keeps wandering off.
You opened the door
...so you get to deal with whatever comes through it.
Try this on for size. Before the horrendously-misnamed "PATRIOT Act", US citizens could enter and leave Canada with nothing more than a driver's license or photocopy of their birth certificate. Border crossings took less than 30 seconds, and usually involved checking said driver's license for validity and warrants through the law-enforcement database. Canadians could enter and leave the US exactly the same way. Customs and Immigration knew who was entering and leaving at any given time, whether they had a criminal record (which, under Canadian law, bars a US citizen from entering Canada for any reason), and where they were going.
The only difference in requiring a passport is that people wanting to cross the border must now pay the government $75 or so for the privilege, and pay it again every 10 years. And border crossings now take an average of three minutes while passport data is cross-referenced with said law-enforcement databases. Guess what, Skippy: same results, more bureacracy. So much for the RepubliCANT "smaller government" talking point.
I now hold three, count 'em, three Federal identification documents, all of which are required for my job. Total cost out of my own pocket: $320. That was just so I could GET my job. My employer will pay to renew any or all of them when the time comes ($75 every 10 years, another $245 every five years), but I still had to pony up to get started. Ten years ago, my cost would have been $215 up front, $75 every 10 years, and $140 every five years. What has it gained the US in terms of security? NOTHING.
Next time, trot your bullshit out in front of someone who doesn't have a clue. You know, like a fellow racist RepubliCANT.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. ~~~John Kenneth Galbraith
Goddamn momo, you are ignorant.
Allright, genius, which system abolished feudalism? The rise of the buorgeosie had nothing to do with it, right?
You really need to get a grasp on economics and history before I can have a rational conversation with you.
Yeah, it had a lot to do with it. What you fail to realize is
that times then are not times now. Every system is flawed. Some more so than others. My point is that communism is flawed much more than capitalism. And countries that adopt that system have a tendency of brutalizing its citizens, much more than democracies do. Democracy (political) and capitalism (economic) work together to form a whole, while communism tries to be both. One is based on the worth of the individual, while the other is based on the collective. One works, one doesn't. One has correctable flaws, one has uncorrectable flaws.
By momofukuSeptember 28, 2008 - 9:31am
You are flawed spammer.
Get off our board. You were banned.
All you ever do is post spam on this board, fubush.
Get a life. You spend to much time posting hate filled drivel.
By momofukuSeptember 28, 2008 - 9:55am
Get off our board spammer.
5 times banned. And you are still here?
Your right. This is our board.
You need to leave. Go away, left wingnut troll. And take your spam with you.
By momofukuSeptember 28, 2008 - 10:13am
Get off our board spammer.
Five times banned and you are still here.
Pathetic.
There never was such a thing as " communism".
What you had in the U.S.S.R. was Stalinism, or " socialism in one country". A state run capitalist nation.
Still, even with all of the terror, people in the Soviet Union saw their standing of living increase over time. By the 1930s they were living much better than they were under the Tsar.
Capitalism has inherent contradictions which will eventually tear it apart. Which we are witnessing right now.
So now you choose to redefine another countries
political process to make it seem communism is a great system. Bullshit. In theory, every system works perfectly, in practice, the systems flaws are exposed. Communism's flaws have been exposed. Face it. It does not work. It is a fatally flawed way of life. Get over it. Invent a better system. Stop clinging to something that has been proven to be horrific.
Well I could come up with a philosophy that involved
worker controlled means of production and call it something other than socialism, but it would still be socialism.
Like most right wingers you are quick to point out the flaws in a political system you don't agree with but ignore the vast amount of evidence that highlight the glaring deficiencies in holy capitalism.
Stuff like genocide, famine, wars, etc., etc, etc.
I'm not the one trying to change one flawed system for one that
is even more flawed. It's you Neo-Coms doing that.
Accuracy fixxy
Obama/Biden '08: the cure for electile dysfunction.
That's " Trotskyist" to you, NeoCon.
The problem is is that you don't what you're talking about. It is painfully obvious that you have never seriously studied history.
You're out of your league here, pally.
He's been out of his depth since he showed up here.
There are too many educated people on this site for him to deal with.
Obama/Biden '08: the cure for electile dysfunction.
I see you don't dispute what I say.
I do know what I am talking about. Typical neo-com, when you can't dispute what is put forth, you make absurd statements that have no content.
Trotskyist? So, your a member of a cult of personality?
Can you explain how capitalism is going to solve the problems
that confront humanity today?
You keep bringing up the old " communist" states like China and Russia, completely unaware that those two revolutions are not the sum of socialist history. I guess I can't fault you for that- everyone in the U.S. gets brainwashed into thinking there is no alternative to capitalism.
You also have to put the Russian and Chinese revolutions into their historical context. Both nations were in the midst of civil war and invasions by foreign armies. I find it ironic that critcs of Red Terror seem oblivious to the corresponding White Terror that the bourgeosie initiated against the revolutionary forces.
As far as talking about more recently,during the Student and Worker strikes in France in 1968 factories were taken over and ran by the workers. In Argentina they are doing the same thing now. These are glimpses of how a socialist society run from the bottom- up would work.
Your last comment is absurd . Another display of your ignorance of working class history.
You just don't get it, do
You just don't get it, do you? Don't you see that needing a passport to go to Canada is the same as being held hostage by your own government in North Korea? Can you not see how it is exactly the same?? Fucking conservatives and their damned common sense arguments!!
By notjfroggSeptember 28, 2008 - 3:44am
He does get it you clueless simpleton.
Accuracy fixxy
I should start charging you for editing services.
Obama/Biden '08: the cure for electile dysfunction.
Yeah, common sense.
Like voting for george W. Bush... twice.
China is sending a mission to space today
We're bogged down in several countries with our military.
Another sad loss for oil
Shell just opened an office in Iraq. Mission accomplished.
Did anyone see Couric interview Palin?
I've heard quotes of a portion of it. Palin was ripped apart.
That is probably why McCain wants to push to have the VP debate cancelled.
when asked what action mccain has taken as a regulator...
"i'll try to find some and i'll bring them to you".
couric had to ask five times to get through the bullshit answers.
Sounds like Palin is turning into
a golden retriever. Fetch, Sarah, fetch!
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Letterman really ripped McCain a new one too
Crash cancelled out on an appearance he was supposed to make on Dave's show last night. He called Letterman up and said he had to get to Washington right away to deal with the economic crisis. Turns out he ended up with Katie Couric instead. Dave put the feed of the interview up for the audience, and when Katie asked McCain a question, Dave yelled, "I have a question for you, Senator...do you need a ride to the airport?". McCain didn't fly out to Washington until today.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
oh, good
we're starting to set the "disrespectful" tone. that drives the elderly nuts. his credibility is shot.
Bill Clinton supports McCain!
Awesome: McCain’s acting in good faith in pulling out of the debate, says Clinton
posted at 10:52 am on September 25, 2008 by Allahpundit
Via Breitbart, here he is from this morning’s GMA, just a week after calling McCain a “great man” and mere hours before stressing how “personally, profoundly honored” he is to have him speak at his charity. This must be the first time since … ever that he and Gingrich have agreed on something. Think he’s enjoying feeding The One this turdburger in bite-sized morsels as thanks for all the racial demagoguery thrown at him during the primary?
The best part of this isn’t the “good faith” bit but his point — which he repeats, so that no one misses it — that Maverick actually wanted more debates, not less. That’ll be a handy riposte tomorrow if McCain ends up skipping out and the left starts accusing him of being scared. Exit question that’s really not a question: Dude, he’s totally voting Republican this year, isn’t he?
The early morning numbers
From RealClearPolitics:
Visit RealClearPolitics for the rest of the data, and the trend graphs.
McCain/Palin '08: the also-rans.
One: I have not taken the position that capitalism
will solve the worlds problems. I just don't believe that communism is the answer. It has proved to be a very flawed system, everywhere it has been tried. Central planning does not work. I am under no illusion about capitalism. It is also flawed. But you seem to think that communism is the only alternative. It is not. And regardless of your justification of the brutality of china and russia, it stills does not change the reality. You also seem to ignore the brutality of other "communist" countries. You also fail to hold the USA as a good example. We also had a revolution, and a civil war, but did not brutalize and murder the losers, after the end of conflict, as historically, those countries have done. Unlike china and russia, we did not purposefully starve our population. As to France and Argentina, I suggest you look at their poverty rates. They really are not a good examples. To you, it seem everything is either/or. It is all bad, or all good. That is flawed way of seeing things. They're are positives about communism and capitalism, as well as negatives. I just feel that the negatives far out way the positives under communism.
You are a mind reader now?
Do myou have an alternative?
I don't accept the brutality of " communist" nations. I just put them in their historical context. In those times, in those nations, if you didn't kill your enemy he was going to kill you.
E.g. When the Koumintang turned on the communists in 1927 the prefered method of executing Red prisoners was to bound them and shove them alive into the coal fires of steam locomotives. How are you going to respond to that? With a bouquet of flowers?
As far as the U.S.A. being a good example... you really must let go of your sanitized versions of the Revolution and the Civil War. During the Revolution both the Patriots and Britsh encouraged a civil war in the South, which was as savage as anything the Russians or Chinese did to each other. And I think a lot of Southerners would disagree with your assesment of our Civil War- particularly the struggle in the western states.
Finally as far as brutalizing and murdering the losers go, a lot of former Tsarist officers joined the Red Army during the war against Poland ( 1922) and suffered no repercussions later. Stalin was much more interested in killing communists. During the Chinese Civil Wars, rank- and - file Kuomintang troops who surrendered to the Reds were generally well treated in the hope that they would join the communist ranks. Many of them did.
Did the U.S.A. show the same mercy to the Native Americans who opposed it? In fact, the early policy towards the people Jefferson described as " the proper subjects of our resentment" by the U.S.A. was genocidal.
When did I ever say socialism was all good or capitalism was all bad? I just pointed out the fact that capitalism cannot solve any of the current problems facing humanity, due to its inherent contradictions.
Couple of other points to address:
1) France. What does their poverty rate have to do with the 1968 Revolution?
2) Argentina. They have a high poverty rate now, after Pres. Menem adopted neoliberal ( free market) policies to the economy back in the 1990s. Their economy imploded and some owners abandoned the factories. The workers were out of work so they took over the factories. And run them much more efficiently.
3) Central planning doesn't work if it is ordered from the top down, like in the Soviet Union after Stalin took over. The proper term is democratic ownership of the economy and the people decide what to do with their production through elected representatives, just like we currently do politically.
You leave out a lot history don't you?
The mass purposeful starvation of populations, for example. And I was referring to the aftermath of the respective wars.
Can't solve any of the problems? Not even one? So, what system can solve all the problems?
)1. They are where they are today, because of where they where yesterday.
)2. Factories only produce what is in demand. Its called supply and demand. Ummmmmmm Wonder what system that term applies too?
)3. Power breds power. It comes from the top. And those on top what to remain on top. Thats reality. That's why your template is faulty. Once in power, the focus changes from benevolence to survival of the status quo.
So, you just sit back and are satisfied with the status quo.
The kulaks. Yeah, yeah. Am I supposed to provide you with the entire history of the Soviet Union or the PRC?
And the systems that initiated those massacres were Stalinist, not Bolshevist ( now called Trotskyist). Socialism in one country, state capitalism, all kinds of theories how going back to capitalism was o.k. because the communist parties were doing it.
The problem with you is not that you leave out a lot of history, you simply do not know a lot of history. Which is convienient since you can paint every worker's movement with Stalinism and dismiss it. Doesn't matter if it is the revolution in Venezuela or striking workers in France, they all have to be condemned because of what Stalin or Mao did. Even though the philosophies are not similar at all.
You don't really believe in democracy, do you?
No, change is ineviatable, regardless of what system is
currently in place. But change, just for the sake of change is no answer, nor is not realizing what that change will entail. I am sure you have heard the term: those who don't learn the lesson's of history are doomed to repeat it.
Bullshit about your history comments. You seem to be stuck on Russia. And you seem to think that if only the Trotskyist had preveiled, everything would have been peaches and cream. I disagree with that assessment. Every country that has tried that system has failed. Not just the Soviets. And every country that adopted that system wound up brutilizing its citizens. That's HISTORY. From stalin, to amin,to pot and to mao.
Bottom line: regardless of which system is put into place, eventually, its the workers who will get screwed in the end. That's an historical fact.
Someone once said, (maybe Churchell) Capitilism is the worst system ever divised by man, except for every other system man has devised. In other words, capitilism is the best man has come up with thus far, and until a better system is built, I'll stick with it, and not try to change into a system that is known to be fatally flawed, such as communism.
By momofukuSeptember 29, 2008 - 9:51pm
Scrolled the drivel...
Support the Troops.
End the Occupation.
And if these countries kept autocrats like the Tsar or colonial
puppets like Chiang Kai shek or Bo Dai they would have been better off?
You're the one who keeps bringing up Russia. I brought up Argentina and France. Want to talk about Cuba now? We could bring Venezuela and Bolivia into the conversation.
Or we could talk about all the rights that American workers enjoy due to the Reds, who got the ball rolling.
Churchill's quote was: " Democracy is the worst form of government on Earth, but it is infinitely better than the alternatives."
Modern capitalism is polite enough to export its brutality. But the neocons are doing something about that- they are bringing it back here.
Again you make assumptions about what I am thinking. What is now termed " Trotskyism" is not the system which prvailed in so- called communist countries. If the old guard Bolsheviks, including Stalin, had been defeated in the power struggle after Lenin's death there would have been problems in the Soviet Union, sure. Socialism doesn't promise to be a utopia, despite what conservative propaganda.says. It does promise to put an end to the control of the state and the economy by the capitalist class. But a dictatorship such as what happened under Stalin would probably have never occurred.
Capitalism is failing now. Wars multiplying around the globe, economic crisis, climate change, all that good stuff. Capitalism can do nothing to resolve those problems because of its inherent contradictions.
See, there you go with the either/or way of thinking.
Again, change is inevitable. And yes, those who where murdered for their political beliefs, would have been better off under the old regimes. While those that survived, the masses, not the elites, would have been no worse off.
What about Cuba? They have a saying in that country. Fidel brought us medicine, education and baseball. He forgot to bring us breakfast lunch and dinner. Do they have freedom of the press there? Or dissent? Or freedom to leave? How many political prisoners are currently incarcerated there?
What you attribute to the REDS I attribute to the natural evolution of the workplace. That's the beauty of capitalism. It has the capacity to evolve, while fundamentally not changing. It can absorbe new ideas into the basic framework.
Capitalism is not failing. It is flourishing. The quality of life, world wide is improving, because of this. Again, it is not a perfect system, but it is better than any alternative yet devised.