Ron Kuby: Palestinians and Dogs
Sorry, don't mean to offend with the headline. The Israelis have now killed close to one hundred Palestinian children, with the latest attack on a UN school serving as a refugee center. All I have been able to do is complain. But now I have a constructive solution--the Palestinians need to dress their children up like doggies--preferably cute ones (no German Shephards or Alsatians, please!).
It turns out that Israel has offered to pay for the treatment of dogs and cats injured or traumatized by the war. A report in Yedioth confirms "...in light of the fact that like their human owners, pets in Israel's south are also under the constant rocket threat, the Agriculture Ministry has decided it would help pay for the medical care of dogs and cats..."
How cool is that? Anyone questioning Israel's kindness should read that one again! Imagine how the Israeli hearts would melt at the sight of thousands of beagles, golden retrievers, Labradors (of all colors--Chocolate, Black and Golden) and Dalmatians lined up at the Gaza/Israel border, wagging their little tails and snurfling their little noses. Instant admission and free medical care.
Now children, repeat after me: "woof"
- FILED UNDER: Host Posts, Gaza, Hamas, Israel, Palestinians, ron kuby
- January 7, 2009
Israeli vs. Hamas
Ron,
You are so much missing the point of what is going on. You fail to recognize that Israel withdrew from Gaza, giving the Palestinians there a chance to begin to have their own state. They then in turn started firing rockets at Israel (and crossed the border and captured an Israeli soldier.) The rocket firing has not stopped for 3 years! They shot 5,000 rockets at Israel. Living there is like living in London during WW II. If you had rockets shot at your house on an average of 3 a day, would you say, "Oh well, I don't mind." If Hamas chose to stop shooting rockets, there would be no war. Notice that Hamas keeps saying they will fight on. You want Israel to stop. Hamas does not.
I think it is you that is missing the point
Israel withdrew from Gaza, but it has been under a blockade for over 2 years. They are supposed to receive money from Israel, something like $200 million if memory serves, which also has not been forthcoming. As a result, they have 80% unemployment, virtually no basic infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, and the airport and seaport are prevented from operating by the Israelis. So, how in hell can anyone create a functioning city, much less a functioning nation under such circumstances. I'm not even certain it is possible to create a Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip. It is so small geographically, something like the size of Detroit or Philly that I don't see how such a small unit can be economically viable, which is precisely what Israel wants. They want the Palestinians to be completely dependent on Israel for their continued existence. They have fired 5000 rockets at Israel, and how many have died precisely? I am betting it is less than 2 dozen in all that time. Comparing it to London during the Blitz is totally ridiculous, as one V-2 hit on London killed more people at one time than all those 5000 rockets fired into Israel.
Like Israel, you seem to have absolutely no interest in fairness, objectivity and proportional response.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Blockades
You are correct that there has been a serious deterioration in the state of affairs in Gaza, which has been exacerbated by the blockade. The challenge is that Hamas was elected at about that time and then staged a bloody coup to oust any remaining Fatah supporters. A video describing some of this can be seen at Hamas Coup.
During this period payments to the government were halted as it was far from clear whether the payments would be used for their intended purposes by their recipients. Hamas' stance, as soon as their Gaza power base was consolidated, was to exacerbate the situation, increasing the cycle of violence. As a non-violent deterrent, Israel threatened to blockade the strip, and ultimately decided to blockade the strip.
While some of your statements are correct, others are not. The Hamas has chosen to funnel currency into arms and munitions as well as development of increasingly greater combatative capabilities. This comes at the expense of infrastructure investments that would support commerce. The schools have not been prevented from operating over the past two years, and in fact continue to teach Hamas approved doctrine, including excerpts from known anti-semitic works such as the Protocols of Zion, and the glories of martyrdom to their elementary school aged children.
The original plan called for Gaza and the west bank to be joined via a secured corridor to form a single entity. That fell apart after the elections in Gaza. I agree that divided, there is little chance of the Palestinians ever establishing a viable entity in Gaza.
I suggest that you rethink your statement regarding the rocketry. From a military perspective, the goal of the V2 program was to convince the British people that Germany could strike them across the channel, demoralizing the British people and destabilizing their economy. This is the same objective behind the Hamas rocket attacks. In actuality, V2 rockets caused more damage than the Hamas rockets, but once protocols were implemented deaths were not as extensive as you seem to believe.
I think the real tragedy for the Palestinians is that they failed to execute on several opportunities for peace, allowed Fatah corruption to grow, creating an opening for radical Islamic elements to be firmly entreched in their government by way of election. The civilians electing this government which openly advocated Islamic law, the escalation of the armed struggle with Israel and martyrdom are being forced to live with the outcome of the party they voted for. The children are the innocents and I feel sorry for them as their current system holds little hope of providing them with a better future.
I will not argue with the fact that the Palestinians really need
to get their act together, as the old saying "United we stand, divided we fall" is very applicable to their current plight. The fighting that erupted between Hamas and Fatah was not only counterproductive, it was totally unneccessary. Fatah was corrupt because one man, Yasser Arafat, was the entire face of Fatah without any serious opposition. As we have seen throughout history, that kind of power never, ever brings anything but trouble.
That being said, there is still no excuse for the Israeli overreaction to the rocket strikes. More people die in LA from gang-related violence in one day than have died in Israel during the 3 years of rocket attacks that some have compared to the London Blitz. Just as the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers was used as justification to launch a war on Lebanon, the Israelis are using the rocket attacks merely as a pretext to launch an attack they wanted to launchh in the first place. After killing a few hundred more Palestinians, they will pull out, claiming "victory", as they did with Lebanon. Just as they left Lebanon without getting back the two soldiers they claimed they would go to war to retrieve, they will leave Gaza without achieving any lasting goals, other than to rachet up the hatred from the Palestinians, strengthening Hamas as they did Hezzbollah. Politicians on both sides find the attacks and counterattacks to be nothing more than tools to gain and increase their own power. We need to stop enabling that cynical behavior, but instead, we see sickening propagandistic appeals on TV to send money for Israel right away.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By UffdaguyJanuary 7, 2009 - 3:06pm
Of course everyone ignores the fact that those two Israeli soldiers were across the border in Lebanon.
You're not supposed to remember that inconvenient little fact
It's obvious that the Israeli government didn't give a rat's ass about their soldiers, or they wouldn't have sent them over the border in the first place, and then, when they declared they'd go to war to get them back, they would have done whatever it took to get them back. The Lebanon war was a poorly-disguised neocon job, arranged by Cheney a few weeks before the attack during a visit to Israel. He gave them the go ahead and encouragement. When that turned out badly, Ohlmert was left with egg on his face, the first Israeli PM to lead Israel into defeat. Then, he was forced to give up his office because of a major corruption investigation. He now attacks Gaza to salvage something for his legacy other than failure and criminal behavior. Like Bush, failure breeds more failure for him.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By UffdaguyJanuary 7, 2009 - 3:31pm
Spot on.
Of course if we adopted the right wing mentality we could shrug off the capture of the soldiers and say "well if they hadn't been in the military of a fascist state like Israel they wouldn't have gotten into that predicament. Just sayin."
Every time I mimic a "compassionate conservative" my skin crawls and I need a shower.
Seriously though, getting back to those two soldiers that got caught across the border in Lebanon, Hezbollah has a history of keeping captured soldiers alive for prisoner exchange.
The mouth pieces of Israel we are hearing from on this board will try to equate Hezbollah with Al Qaeda in Iraq (which of course didn't exist until Bush invaded).
I've listened to right wing jewish people speak
Some do think of Palestinians like animals.
But it would be wrong to label all jewish people or Israeli's as such. This is a matter of thinking people vs. right wing fascist mentality, not a matter of anti semitism.
There are many people in Israel who are upset with their government's actions. I've found articles in Israeli news papers sympathetic to the plight of the people in Gaza.
To the "compassionate conservative" in the US, there are two types of jewish people:
1. The ones that should be supported for killing lots of muslim people
2. The ones who don't agree with killing lots of muslims. These are the ones the right wingers direct their hate toward for "killing Jesus".
Palestinian dogs
Yes, that is insulting to both parties; Palestinians and dogs. Apparently Jews living under the terror of rocket and bombing attacks where schools and homes are deliberately targeted is OK. Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I do not recall ANY protests when the Pal destroyed the homes and green houses Israel left for them, or Hamas using civilian homes, schools, and hospitals as terrorist launching pads? Perhaps you missed the Israelis treating the wounded on both sides? Or maybe it's OK for Egypt to have shoot on sight policy and not allowing any aide to their fellow Muslims? BTW, being sympathetic to the people of Gaza is not the same as feeling guilt. Israel did not shoot at convoys from Tel Aviv bringing in food, Israel is not using human shields, nor did Israel reject the truce. I realize putting aside your hatred for Jews is difficult, but try, just try to learn a few things.
Maybe you have also missed reports today that Israel has
fired on 5 ambulances, something they have done a number of times in the past. Or how about them firing at American reporters, as they did last year on a Fox News reporter who was trying to cover an Israeli operation against Palestinians?
Your rabid pro-Israel stance marks you as someone who prefers the status quo of endless death on both sides rather than wanting actual peace. For your information, speaking out is something we used to cherish here in America, and though it is frowned upon by those in power, it is still a constitutional right for the present time. If you really feel that calling Palestinians dogs is insulting to dogs, I guess you will be happy to see Israel continue killing Palestinians until there are no more Palestinians to annoy them, or the remaining few are completely broken. There's a word for that: GENOCIDE.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Israel uses human shield
They put their ministry of defense in a downtown area on a busy street.
If someone were to attack it many civilians would die.
Obviously Israel did this on purpose.
Shields...
Based upon this logic, the Pentagon was a legitimate target (as is the rest of DC), as well as most country capitols (e.g. Paris, London, etc.).
By DiscipleJanuary 7, 2009 - 2:05pm
Yeah that's what I meant. LOL The more I realize how off target this bonehead response is, the more I laugh. Right wingers and their reptilian brains - always good for a laugh.
Gaza is a very densely populated urban area
Finding an "open" spot that is free of all civilians is simply impossible. Maybe bombing in such areas isn't the best way to deal with this kind of situation. If you find it is acceptable, I'm sure you'd have no problem with the US Air Force bombing downtown LA in order to get rid of street gangs. Sure, hundreds of civilians would be killed, but by con logic, they deserved it because they didn't get rid of the gangs themselvese. Those gangs would be using the civilians as human shields, right? Man, the government must be stupid to not be using bombs to deal with this situation. Why bother risking the lives of police when we can simply bomb the bad guys into oblivion?
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Simple for Simple Minded?
Let's try this one on for size.
You want to fire a rocket at a target 25 miles away.
You know that the Israelis will call an air strike on the launch site as soon as the launch is detected.
Do you decide to:
Fire from a schoolyard, with the hope that Israel opts not to return fire?
Fire from a schoolyard, with the hope that it generates many casualties?
From from an open area not surrounded by domiciles, schools, or hospitals?
If you argue that the last option does not exist, "as in the open spot" rubbish you wrote earlier, please save the time and look at Google Maps in satellite view first to see that the Gaza strip has several fields and open areas available. Here is a convenient link:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=gaza%20map&revid=101470220&ei=LAhlSY...
We all know which options the Hamas has NOT selected.
Yes, it is much smarter to launch your missiles from a wide open
field under the watchful eyes of Israeli Predator drones than to launch from a place that is much more difficult to pinpoint. Those stupid Hamas people should just launch in plain view so they can be more easily slaughtered by the Israelis.
By that logic, Washington's army should have marched straight into open fields to confront the vastly superior British army instead of using ambush tactics and hit and run raids. Had he done that, you'd still be a member of the British Empire.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Still not there yet...
Hmmm...Hamas terrorists are metaphorically equivalent to the colonials fighting for freedom.
Not sure that this analogy does you any credit.
While the colonial army did use tactics that included ambushes and hit and run raids, those were carried out against British troops. The colonials did not fire from besieged school houses, hospitals, as a matter of doctrine.
If they continue to knowingly launch, then they are placing their own populace in grave danger.
Since their own manifesto places a higher value on death as part of Hamas activities rather than life, and their behavior is unchanged, it seems to be an acceptable risk to them.
Of course they could just not launch at all. Wait, that would mean no incursions, no embargo, and a potential for peace. Hmm. Scratch that one, it does not conform to the Hamas charter or the desire of their Iranian sponsors.
By DiscipleJanuary 7, 2009 - 3:27pm
Ddi you hear that folks?
Those kids killed in the school in gaza, by an Israeli missile purchased with US tax payer money, have a manifesto.
Save The Children
The children are innocents caught in a deadly war.
Yes, Israel chose to fire a missile at a rocket launch site.
Yes, Hamas chose to place their launch site in a school knowing full well what the likely outcome would be.
Both sides have culpability for the death of innocents.
Personally, I support allowing the children to be evacuated until the violence is over.
Know any country with the resources and willingness to contain and house 100,000 or so kids?
The people killed at that site were killed from artillery fire,
not a missile. In fact, the Israelis admit to dropping 3 shells on that area. In other words, they deliberately blanketed the target, with a few seconds in between shells to reconsider. In addition, a UN investigation reveals that there were no mortars, rockets or any other weapons fired from that location. So, either the Israelis were mistaken in firing on that school THREE times, or they lied about fire coming from there.
So, which is it? Are they incompetent, or are they liars?
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
By UffdaguyJanuary 7, 2009 - 3:49pm
Don't forget the war crimes of dropping white phosphorous by the Israelis.
I think Anne Frank would cry if she knew Israel had turned Gaza into the worlds largest concentration camp.
They used WP and cluster bombs in Lebanon, and are also
reportedly using both now in Gaza, despite the fact that not only are they banned by the Geneva Convention, of which Israel is a signatory, but also against the agreements Israel signed when they purchased them from the US. They specifically promised not to use the weapons in an offensive capability, but their use across the border in territory of another nation is obviously offensive in nature. Israel lies, and people die.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Knowing full well that this country pissed all over the
Geneva Conventions, you really think Israel will uphold them? They're just going by the Bush/Cheney rule book.
It sickens me that Israel fired upon that school and will do whatever is necessary to justify it. It also makes me sick that they agreed to a 'truce' in order to allow humanitarian efforts to flow into Gaza - many days after the fact ... mighty white of them, huh?
Absolutely disgusting.
"I'm always amazed when I hear people saying; "That George Bush, he's a great leader". And I wonder, where can one find a drug that would make one so delusional?" Lewis Black
Again, what do they get for NOT launching?
Yes, their citizens live, but it's really more survival than any kind of life. They see more and more of their territory occupied by illegal Israeli settlements, they see 80% unemployment, they see no present, no future, and complete indifference by the world.
I see your real problem now. You are raising the specter of the Iranian boogeyman. Perhaps you also support Israel going in and bombing their reactor and enrichment sites? Apparently killing a few hundred Palestinians isn't good enough for you. In order to keep Israel from being attacked by non-existend Iranian WMD, you're willing to sanction attacks that will kill literally millions of people in dozens of countries and permanently take the world's largest oil reserves out of production.
As usual, you are completely unable to tell me what vast harm the Palestinians can do to Israel. More people die in Baghdad each day than have died in all these rocket attacks, but we consider that Iraq is a great victory, (or at least deluded repubs say it is). If having a dozen or two people die in suicide bombings each day is acceptable for Iraq, why is some minor property damage and a couple of deaths over a period of 3 years so atrocious to Israel? Can't they just "suck it up" like the Iraqis are supposed to do?
Check on the Israeli crime figures, and I think you'll find far more people have died from regular old crimes in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv than have died in these supposedly intense "London Blitz" rocket attacks. Maybe the Israeli government should bomb the neighborhoods where these crimes take place.
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Gaza
Gaza is about 20 miles long and 4 miles wide, And is the most populated area in the world for its size. Hamas has said they will negotiate if Israel agrees to open the borders, so the people can trade and live a normal life. Hamas did do most of their firing from open fields,but only a fool would do most of their firing from their now. since they are not allowed to have a true military, but only allowed to have a security force, this is the only way they can fight back, Israel is even hesitating to go into the city itself because they know there will be heavier casualties if they do that.
A lot of people ignore the fact
That israel broke the cease fire by crossing the border back in November.
The militant wing of hamas over reacted of course by launching a bunch of homemade missiles that killed no one just as Israel has over reacted by killing hundreds of innocent people.
It's all for political gain. Olmert hopes people don't wake up to to realize he has delivered another disaster to the israeli people before election time.
Oh and don't forget it was in the news that Israel is now taking the war to the internet. There is a room of paid bloggers waiting around to defend the actions of the Israeli government in cyber space.
Please get your facts straight...
Hamas was firing rockets into Israel through October.
Do yourself a favor and read about it.
Here are 2 links from a quick google search on "Hamas rockets october"
http://www.donaldsensing.com/?p=1581
As you can see, in the link below, Hamas has been steadily trying to increase the effectiveness of their rockets.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm
Oh, and I should warn you that the Hamas is trying to take the war to the internet.
There is a roomful of blogger martyrs waiting to type their fingers away to the bone to defend the actions of the Israeli government in cyber space return, for which they will be rewarded in the afterlife with 20 virgin PCs.
By Disciple January 7, 2009 - 3:48pm
Look - a disciple of the fascist Israeli government
I feel sorry for the Jewish people around the world about to experience a wave of anti semitism because of Olmert's political move. It's already happening.
Not all of those people supported the fascist Israeli regime. They should not be targeted, just as the children in the Gaza concentration camp should not be killed by missiles from Israel for the actions of some militants.
And these right wing toadies. They think that because you realize how incredibly stupid this action is by the Israeli government, that you are siding with hamas.
Typical right wing stupidity.
anti-semitism
Oh,I am sorry, I failed to realize that all this is Israel's and the Jewish people's fault. Hamas is a saintly entity that would never use human shields, cut the throats of young Jewish children or lie cheat or steal to and from their own people, destroy a means of livelihood IE (farms) or renounce a cease-fire. Sweetie pie you have no idea what a concentration camp is, so I forgive your obvious lack of historical perspective. Population density...
1 Macau (PRC) 520,400 28.6 18,196
2 Monaco 32,671 1.95 16,754 [2]
3 Hong Kong S.A.R. (PRC) 7,057,000 1,099 6,422
4 Singapore 4,327,000 699 6,336
5 Gibraltar (UK) 27,921 6 4,654
6 Vatican City 821 0.44 1,866 [3]
7 Bahrain 1,046,814 720 1,454 [4]
8 Malta 401,880 316 1,272
9 Bermuda (UK) 64,174 53 1,211
10 Maldives
I realize fact must never get in the way of ideologies; but I do keep trying.
By eneri101January 7, 2009 - 5:57pm
It's the fault of fascist leaders of Israel, not the fault of Jews in general you simpleton.
Disciple
Not all disciples think like you. there are those that can not be fooled.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Denis Kucinich: “We
Denis Kucinich:
“We cannot truly celebrate a New Year, a new Congress and a new administration if all we see is the same old destruction in the Middle East with U.S. weapons being illegally used to kill children.
I oppose Hamas’ rocket attacks on Israel. The rocket attacks, even to try to end the blockade, have no moral justification, are illegal and must stop.
But how can Israel claim self-defense when it bombs Gaza which has no army, no air force, no navy and has been under a constant blockade? How can Israel claim self-defense when its bombs destroy UN schools, killing children?
The children of Palestinians and the children of Israel both deserve life. But the lives of the children of Gaza are cynically discounted as “human shields.” Massacres are being rationalized. Israel’s “moral high ground” in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard.
The Administration knows Israel is using U.S. weapons, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, with disproportionate force creating a collective punishment of Gazans, assuring an escalation of conflict, clear violations of the Arms Export Control Act.
Israel was given U.S. weapons on condition they would not be used for aggression or escalation. The outgoing Administration must finally stand for the rule of law, not the rule of force.”
Does anyone remember the starving people of gaza?
When they broke through the border into Egypt to get food?
Life is a bitch in an Israeli created concentration camp.
If it is all about self-defense...
why not implement a 'star wars'-esque missle defense system?
*receives memo*
What do ya mean they don't work?!
That takes all the fun out of butchering women and children!
How the hell can Netanyahu get elected if he doesn't have a few dead Palestinians to use as props?
Truth is whatever you can get other people to believe - Tom Smothers
Planned Aggression
Israel has reportedly been planning this invasion for a year. How did they know that Hamas was going to fire the rockets unless they wanted to force Hamas into a position where that would be their only possible response. I wouldn't want to live in Israel, where rockets could rain down on my head at any time. But I could not rest comfortably knowing the my government was causing the level of hardship that the blockade caused either. (And sadly America is complicit in this Israeli action) The raids on Palestinian leadership that the Israelis don't like, the capture, arrest and detention of Palestinians, many without charge, the complete control and manipulation (for negative purposes) of the Palestinian economy does not suggest peaceful intent. It suggests that you want to dominate the people and make them bend to your will. No American would accept this existence for themselves but we blithely suggest that the Palestinians are ungrateful for not accepting what is given to them. If fairness is not to persevere, then enlightened self-interest should. This cruelty is never forgotten or destined to develop into the goodwill that can sponsor peace and mutual acceptance. It has not worked for them in their history. Why not try a more even handed approach?
Your incorrect "Apartment in Tel Aviv" scenario
You have often used the analogy of Hamas terrorists taking over an apartment building in Tel Avivin order to berate Israel for bombing the home of Hamas terrorist Nizar Rayan, killing him and his four wives and children, this even after Israel called to tell Rayan to take his family and leave the house (the real target there being a weapons cache). In response to this and other Israeli strikes that have killed civilians along with Hamas terrorists, you have said that Israel would never bomb a building in Tel Aviv that Hamas was using to launch rockets at Israeli citizens, if many Israeli civilians would be killed in the process. So, you've concluded, the Israelis are monsters because they care more about ISraeli civilians' lives than those of Palestinian civilians.
My answer would be: Of course they do, and so should every nation care more about its own citizens than about people outside the country.
Answer this question: Why is it ISRAEL's responsibility, rather than, say, Denmark's, to take the appropriate means to end Hamas rocket fire on ISRAELI citizens?
The reason, of course, is that primary responsibility for defending a nation's citizens from harm falls on THAT nation, not on any other. Other nations' governments have a somewhat lesser responsibility to prevent harm to people who are not their citizens than does the government in whose jurisdiction they reside.
Israel has cost itself the invaluable element of surprise time and time again, and probably given up a great many targets with blood on their hands, by dropping leaflets, making phone calls and otherwise warning Palestinians to vacate target sites before attacking them. The fact that Hamas places these weapons caches and rocket launching sites in densely populated areas reflects their complete lack of concern for their own people's lives. You acknowledge this on your show, but then attack Israel for failing to show more concern for Palestinian civilians than Hamas does.
This is a standard that no other nation on Earth has ever been asked to abide by. It is reasonable to insist that a nation at war make every reasonable effort to minimize enemy civilian casualties, as Israel has done consistently since its independence. It is NOT reasonable to insist that a nation at war protect enemy civilians with to the same level as its own, and it is madness to insist that a nation at war take more responsibility to protect enemy civilians than the enemy government does.
Yet when Israel takes great risks to protect Palestinian civilians and Hamas does nothing to protect them, you claim that they are morally equivalent! If you don't see a problem with this moral equivalency, then I don't see what value any problamation of moral outrage from you about any wrongdoing could possibly have.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would address this issue publicly on your show, or at least on this forum.
David C.
Houston
Mr. Kuby is not "neutral" on the subject of Israel
David C
Like many lawyers, Mr. Kuby can't be neutral. He's a trained advocate. He also happens to be a progressive, on the left...how can he be both neutral and progressive?
Lawyers use words carefully . Mr. Kuby uses "shock" words to describe Israeli actions -"CARNAGE" in Gaza, "Horrific" "inhumane" "slaughter"...but milder words such as "horrible" and "terrible" to describe Hamas.
Listen carefully to his "asides"-one in particular struck me as beyond the pail. Almost under his breath he said, paraphrasing, Israel has systematically been trying to reduce the Palestinian population since 1948. Really? Is that a "neutral" interpretation of history? His true stripes come out loud and clear. (By the way, Mr. Kuby, have you ever heard of President Polk and what he did to the Indian. The entire U.S. is on native Indian and Spanish soil, lots of slaughter. I don't see you questioning the U.S's very existence, less its little expansion. Well, you might bring it up, but dispassionately)
Mr. Kuby, in immature fashion, is not able to acknowledge when there is a weakness in his argument, getting upset when that happens, moving from analogy or hypo to "facts" and reversing course, using distraction, changing assumptions in midstream, etc...and basically unable to to modify his views in any manner.
When it comes to this topic, he does not ask for a discussion; he's asking for opposing points of view so he can arrogantly and stubbornly "trounce" those arguments, until weaknesses in his are exposed, he throws out a distraction not letting the caller finish the thought, and the caller is quickly dumped.
Ok, lawyers like examples:
Caller: What if another child shot your child's friend, and your child went to the principle who did nothing about it. What would you do?
Mr. Kuby: Well, I wouldn't go to the child's home and shoot everyone in it.
Caller: Ok, but what would you do about it?
Mr. Kuby: (upset)-Ok, I'd hire a bunch of hitmen to kill the child.
Mr. Kuby then goes into distraction mode - a mild repetitive tirade previously made about the red cross's complaints regarding Israel's delay in allowing ambulances to help victims of a bombing.
What would you instruct the hitmen if the child hid in his family's home, the family having supported your child's shooting? Ok, I hear the red cross tirade coming again.
Another Caller: Israel just wants the Palestinians to lay down their arms and have peace
Mr. Kuby: Oh that's ridiculous. They did the economic blockade to force Hamas to fire rockets. That's not wanting peace.
Well, a more neutral view might be that an economic blockade would hopefully help the Palestinians to vote for Al Fatah in the next election so peace talks can continue...it's not about limiting supplies for its own sake. They elected terrorists who don't recognize Israel's existence. Is Mr. Kuby's position "neutral." Does he acknowledge his argument's weakness?
Final example:
Bringing up the threat of Iran obtaining a nuclear bomb to justify actions in self defense to is to "bring up the boogyman" argument. So Israel is willing to kill millions of people, destroy the oil pipeline, blah blah blah goes his argument.
Well, a "neutral" observer may realize that negotiations with Iran to drop their nuclear weapon program have been fruitless, that its quite likely either Iran, or more likely a group they support (maybe like..Hamas?) will obtain a WMD, and maybe Israel's existence will be in great jeopardy from the all direction, and that, in consideration of those probabilities, Israel may be in more of a pickle than Mr. Kuby acknowledges. But that, again, would weaken his argument and cause a modification of views.
In sum, supporters of Israel, Mr. Kuby is not neutral, and we are wasting our time.
Who in here can make a difference ?
If any one has the power to change this situation, Please do so !
This amount of energy and passion should be used to prosecute and punish OUR OWN WAR CRIMINALS !!!
What analogy is acceptable?
Ron's anaolgy for an appropriate military response was spot on. But the other guy said that wasn't the analogy to him.
Its too bad the segment had to end there because it would have been helpful to learn what he thought was an appropriate response.
What would he say if hammas ran into a building where instead of innocent palestinian civilians, it sheltered puppies and kittens? Might they want to think about it more - to hold their fire and not level the whole building to get a few shooters?
Of course no one mentions the fact that the Israeli govt.
never gave the Palestinians any say over wether or not they wanted Gaza as their " viable" state. Its more than a little insulting to have the power that drove you from your home in the first place offer you a fraction of what you had... and blame you for losing your home inthe first place!
The Israeli government and its right wing backers in the U.S. would love to see a flood of Palestinians move into Egypt ( Lebanon and Jordan can't take anymore- they are strained enough with the refugees from Iraq). That would make room for more settlers. The ultimate goal is to wipe out Palestinian nationhood by forced emigration and by having a pliable party like Fatah run the Israeli satrapy on the West Bank.
I think in Bosnia a similar situation was called ethnic cleansing.
So Hamas isn't cute and cuddly. BFD. Right now they are the only party fighting for Palestine's right to exist. And they fight it the way they do because all that chivalry crap died out in WW2. Guerilla war and terrorism are the only ways for the poor and disenfranchised to fight a nation with a Western style military. You either fight that way or you accept unconditionally whatever terms your enemy wants to impose upon you.
Palestine response
I called yesterday to tell u that i was grateful about you telling the truth about the Gaza situation. I feel that the details are not told enough. The story that is repeated is that the terroists are using the women and children as sheilds so that the Isralies must shoot at them. We of course dont know if this is true and how can we ever know when most of these people will be killed no matter what. I am outraged that these people are trapped without anyone coming to their aid. They dug the tunnels because the blockade that was imposed upon them and the essentials of life were denied them. I imagine if i were in that situation i would be shooting rockets too not that this is correct i dont condone it but i do understand their frustration. Also i hear of many arguments comparing this to our using the A bomb the second world war and with many other parts of history that have nothing to do with this there is no comparison. All I know is that this must stop. By your bring humanity to the people of Gaza and bringing forth what their everyday lives are like I believe is helpful to them in some small way. So I comend you and hope that you continue with your passionate voice in helping these human beings.
The Bullies
Does anyone remember the bullies that tied to pick a fight by pushing you down? And how they claimed that you actually pushed them? You’re sitting on the ground and they want you to apologize for something they did to you? But you don’t. Then bullies move it up a notch, pinning you down to the ground. And each time you struggle to get up, they claim that you were fighting them. But you still won’t apologize. They press your face into the dirt. If you move at all or even try to breath, the aggression escalates. How dare you! The fists hit your face, but by now you would rather die than be cowed.
By thaelmann37January 7, 2009 - 5:56pm
Excellent post. Understanding the full scope of the situation cannot be acheived without knowing the reasons of how and why this situation developed....long before Hamas was firing rockets into Israel. The only downside is it makes finding a viable solution that much more frustrating, cause telling people to just stop, while very straight-forward and simplistic, isn't going to work, just as it never has.
your post
This post is really sickening. Do you really think Israelis dont feel the loss of civilians and care more about dogs than people. You really are a disgrace. I am getting tired of the anti Israel rants from Air America. Why is it now cool to be anti jewish and anti Israel in the progressive community. When did this happen. I am tired of the double standards and everything Israel does is wrong mentality. It is painful to hear fellow liberals profess such hatred. I am not going to listen for a while, I might have a stroke listening to this bull and your stupidity.
By staciecoJanuary 7, 2009 - 6:31pm
Oh stop you moron.
Pointing out the stupidity of this move by the Israeli government is not anti semitic.
You sound like a concern troll.
Blockades and cross border
Blockades and cross border raids to go after leadership that you don't like are acts of war, even under one-sided cease-fire arrangement. This is what Israel has done, not just in November but for the two years of Hamas leadership (and with US complicity). They did it despite the democratic election which they called for and which brought Hamas to power. They also raided the West Bank and overflew parts of Lebanon, all in violation of treaties. But that should be overlooked because this country agrees with Israel. The problem is, these actions are seen by other countries, even if they go unnoticed here. Their press cover these infractions even if ours do not. Then the world sneers at our talk of freedom and democracy, none of which our government seems to accept when it doesn't go their way. Israelis should not have to live in fear but Palestinians shouldn't be relegated to hovels and refugee camps because they won't agree to give up the land of their birth to, in their minds, foreign immigrants from Europe. The Palestinians and Israelis are cousins and this internecine squabble will not be settled with bloodshed and blockades. People don't forgo their aspirations because of hardship, they refine them. You have to give them a fair and just alternative. That has not happened yet and all the military hardware in the US and Israel will not be able exterminate these simple facts, short of the total elimination of the Palestinian people.
This article crosses the
This article crosses the line. It is stupid and insulting. Israel does not target civilians. You wonder why anti semtic attacks have increased in this country over the past week, it is because of posts like this. I have read more anti jewish comments on liberal sites this week than I have seen in my entire life. Who Knew? It is very instructive though to read.
Nobody has said
that Israel is targetting civilians specifically to my knowledge other than your straw man argument.
I think they were just pointing out the wrecklessness and lack of concern to minimize civilian deaths.
If I call Oscar the Grouch a grouch, is that an insult?
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 7:16pm
hmmm
You haven't seen anti jewish comments on this site.
You've seen criticism of Israel's stupidity in killing people in the gaza concentration camp.
Kuby, I agree with you on this one.
This brings to mind a Bush pundit making sure to add positive comments about Bush during a discussion of him on one of the cable corporate media channels. He pointed out that by Bush giving Africans our tax dollars to fight AIDS (which I have no problem with by the way, I was just pointing out that this wasn't a personal donation) that he views every life as sacred. It goes without saying how ridiculous this comment is when you are referring to Mr. rendering. torturing, crusading, warmongering, sit on your ass on 9/11 while Americans die, sending 4000 more to their death needlessly, Texas executor governor, Katrina guy.
By the way, when we send US tax dollars to Africa to buy pharmaceuticals to treat HIV, who gets most of that money?
"Every" is relative. For Bush, "every" is limited to caucasian, rich corporate types. In the case of Africa, I assure you relieving suffering of poor blacks was just a side effect of his real intent.
At least in Israel, "every" means any Jew or their pet. They are much more generous than our leadership.
UN: Israel Admits Claims About Attacked School Baseless
Sounds like Lebanon 2006
It seems the UN schools just don't no how to get out of the way.
know!
Duh.
Anti-Semitism
Just because you disagree with the Israeli government does not mean that you are antisemitic. That is insulting. There are many people in Israel who do not agree with their government, just as there are many people here who didn't agree with Bush. The actions of the government do not necessarily reflect the values of its people. I do not support renditioning people or torture or turning a blind eye to the killing of near defenseless people (Palestine, Darfur, Congo, New York) But if you voice opposition to Israeli action you quickly get that label. Congress suffers mightily from this problem. The lobby to punish you if you don't offer blind allegience to Israel is extraordinary. Hamas is no bed of roses either. They, however, would not exist except for the excesses of the Israeli state and the shortsightedness of the American government. Neither would Hezbollah. Instead of crushing one enemy you developed many others that are worse. You have to be willing to talk to your enemies, without preconditions, if you want to solve the conflicts. Its unclear if the leaders pay attention to these little inconvenient facts. After reading this post, it is unclear that many of us do either...
From the Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728151848&pagename=JPArti...
So for this guy and several disgruntled bloggers its not what you say but how you say it(or I hear what I want to hear). Sounds like an argument I had with one of my ex-girlfriends.
By bobcollumJanuary 7, 2009 - 8:02pm
This is the act of desperation. The old Israeli government = all jews card.
WE are suppose to just shut up about anything the Israeli government is doing to avoid being anti semites. And forget that the rest of the world, including the US, created Israel for the Israelis and that the US pays their way.
Sorry, if you believe that
Sorry, if you believe that the jews in Israel should be exterminated or pushed into the sea, or you justify rocket attacks or terrorist attacks on Israel, you are anti jewish. It is the only jewish state in the world and one of the world's smallest countries in population and size. What I have read the past week on liberal websites it not a disagreement over government policy. It is a denial that Israel has the right to defend itself and a denial of their right to exist. No country would tolerate daily rocket attacks on their cities. No credible radio host would write that jews value dogs over children. I pray for the safety of Israeli soldiers who are rooting out bomb factories and terrorist tunnels as we speak. I hope the war ends soon without any further loss to civilians on both sides. Never Again.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 8:04pm
We're dealing with a real Einstein here.
First of recognizing that Israel's strategy is pointless and ultimately not in the best interest does not equate to being anti semitic. It also does not mean that one supports the launching of missiles by militant hamas.
Can you wrap your little right wing. reptilian brain around that?
PLEASE
There is a difference of opinion on how to handle the Middle East, this is NOT (and should NOT) be a partisan issue. The sooner we all get back to discussing our disagreements and stop hurling invectives, the better off we "may" be.
Assailing each other is merely harmful to the larger discussion and postpones any possible solution. Maybe we all need to sit on our own anxiety and force ourselves to actually hear the other side on this?
Chauvinism
A chauvinist will find bias in any criticism of his nation. The Jewish American Progressives I read simply set a higher standard for Israel—because they care about Israel. Sound familiar? Over the last 8 years anyone wanting America to live up to its principles was attacked as un-American. It’s time for progressives to push back against those who would, through arrogance or fear, sell our collective souls.
I might be wrong about this,
but it is my understanding that Kuby is Jewish. So is Jon Stewart for that matter.
This is the mindset that we need to get rid of in this country. What do I mean by that? I mean the "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. This is the same as calling Americans that didn't want our government to torture un-American when they were actually standing up for real American values.
What those in charge of the Israeli government do my not necessarily be what most Jews wish them to do, and if they are critical of a questionable move, this does not make them racist, especially if they are members of that race. This just makes them critical thinkers and demonstrates something called a conscience, and, yes, I have to give Kuby credit for objectivity on this one.
I realize facts are not necessarily important to some when it comes to debate. These same folks referred to a white guy who is half black as a black supremacist during a recent campaign, so I am not surprised.
Fact Check
Ron,
This is an utterly vile and inflammatory post by you. I assure you that neither Israeli soldiers nor the Israeli government wants to kill children. I wish I could say the same for Hamas.
You are really overboard here Ron, and unfair to Israel.
And could you please cite your source and the underlying facts supporting your claim that "The Israelis have now killed close to one hundred Palestinian children, with the latest attack on a UN school serving as a refugee center."
The references I am seeing on various internet sources to the issue of children killed in mortar attacks is that among the dead are found some children (without any number attached), but also there have been discovered armed members of Hamas among the dead. Thus, this supports the claim that children are being used by Hamas as human shields.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 8:04pm
Its worth noting that you like to imply when we speak unfavorably of Israel, we're talking about the Jews, and when you talk about it, you reference them as Israelis. I usually try to steer clear of searching for hidden meanings, but it seems to be par for the course on this thread.
Hello, Israelis are jews.
Hello, Israelis are jews. You are talking about the jews. Who do you think you are talking about? My temple had to hire 24 police security this week to protect its daycare. Attacks, including firebombing of temples are spreading across Europe. The world makes no distinction, they never have.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 9:26pm
Yes that is one reason the Israeli government was so incredibly stupid to do this. The killing of people in the Israeli created gaza concentration camp has created all sorts of fall out.
In Britain Jewish people have been attacked. In Turkey, the Israeli basketball team had to leave the court.
None of those people are to blame for their stupid governments actions any more than the innocent people in Gaza were to blame for the actions of militant hamas.
The criticism of the Israeli government goes beyond simply supporting hamas. It has to do with what we all knew would happen in response. Looks like you are starting to see the results of this stupidity.
If Ron is jewish, this makes
If Ron is jewish, this makes his post worse. I guess to get his lefty street creed he must slander his fellow jews by claiming they don't care about the killing of children. I have no respect for someone who would write this.
Um, while a majority of Israeli's are religously Jewish ...
they, as well as the millions of Christians and Muslims living in Israel, are Israeli's too - since one is usually identified by their country of birth, it would be a safe bet to say that, religiously, there are Israeli Christians and Muslims, too.
My ethnic make-up is Italian, German and Irish. My Italian lineage is Jewish, but I was raised Catholic as were the prior two generations of the maternal side of my family. However, I am an American, first and foremost.
And, you sound like a nice, lock-step right-winger with your 'with us or against us' mentality. From what I remember, dissent from government is a form of patriotism. You may remember that those who dissented from this government's actions regarding Iraq, torture, etc. were labeled anti-American. It appears that to you, those speaking out against the Israeli government's action are anti-semites, anti-Israeli. And I find that pretty sad on your part, skippy, that you cannot make the distinction between criticizing a government and criticizing a person.
"I'm always amazed when I hear people saying; "That George Bush, he's a great leader". And I wonder, where can one find a drug that would make one so delusional?" Lewis Black
Come on now,
we all are passionate and we all have differing views on this horrific situation in the Middle East, but that does not mean any of "us" should hate the opposing views.
We absolutely need to listen to all if we ever hope to solve these problems.
It's funny
Every single right winger that comes on this board responds to any mention of the death of innocent people in gaza with a statement justifying it.
And then they have the nerve to point a finger at us claiming we are anti semitic.
Right wingers are deranged.
I am not right wing, unless
I am not right wing, unless being jewish or pro-Israel is now right wing. It just seems that to be a pure progressive these days, you have to be against Israel, their entire existance and everything they do. This is very painful to us. It is also reality that the over the top attacks on Israel results in anti-semitic attacks here. Read the newspaper.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 9:44pm
So when I criticized the US government for invading Iraq, what did that make me?
Stupidity is stupidity and it doesn't matter what government or what religious persuasion.
Stop throwing your religion into the debate like some right wing, born again, Bush supporter.
Ah yes, because religion has
Ah yes, because religion has nothing to do with what is going on in the middle east. If only that were true.
f u bush2, I Must Disagree With You on This
I hardly consider myself a right winger, but I am quite torn in this conflict. I don't see it as a black and white issue and can actually see the points of both sides. I suppose that will be my death, but this sort of long and nasty division has many faces, thus I don't see it as a purely partisan issue.
Heck, I have arguments with my partner almost daily recently on this very subject and yet neither of us have hurled the "anti semitic" term at each other. I think it incredibly harmful to the issue to reduce it to such a small matter of partisanship and it does nothing to really address the larger problems of what to do next.
I really think it's crucial that we all open up our minds to look at the bigger issues in solving such horrendous and violent struggles.
OK, you can throw a punch now, I'm ducking....
By Polly TicsJanuary 8, 2009 - 4:59pm
I have been called an anti semite on this board and a "jew hater". I've also been labelled a supporter of hamas. All because I condemn this activity on the part of the Israeli government. I am also upset with the concentration camp known as the Gaza strip where people life poor lives and are forced to outwardly support terrorists who supply them with food.
Sorry if I'm a bit touchy.
But it seems to me that that is the card these people are dealing.
I am simply tired of every comment about the death of innocent people being followed with justification.
This move on Israel's part is not only deadly to hundreds, soon to be thousands, of Palestinians, it is also going to backlash against both Israeli's, Jewish people in general and the US. There already is backlash around the world.
Every right winger that comes on here is an apologist.
The people in New Orleans deserved because...
The people in Gaza deserve it because...
The Iargi Sh'ite in the 1980's deserved to die from US made chemicals at the hands of Saddam because...
The soldiers caught up in stop loss deserve it because...
I'm sick of it. And I'm not going to hold back my criticism of Israel because some idiot says that is the same as being a "jew hater".
u bush2,
Listen, I'm sick of all of the death and violence as well, but that doesn't mean that those with whom we disagree are evil or right wingers (or are they the same thing?) LOL sorry about that, but I couldn't resist...
When we call each other names it only deflects and detracts from the actual issues that are at the heart of the problem and the more we do so, the longer and nastier this fight will become. Ad hominem attacks are NEVER the solution albeit they do sometimes make you feel better, but they should not be part of the actual discussion.
I am hardly suggesting you hold back commenting on what you feel is unjust, but I am protesting the simplification that anyone who disagrees with us is wrong, or right wing or stupid or whatever it may be. And I'm sick of the horror as well, but solutions demand discussion and debate.
By Polly TicsJanuary 8, 2009 - 5:33pm
You are right to a point.
Not everyone I disagree with is evil.
But some are.
Drats, double post again!
.
I heard that the militant leaders of hamas derailed negotiations
I might have heard this wrong but I'm looking for a reference.
These guys are as disgusting as Olmert and his allies.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 9:26pm
Maybe you should give my post another go.
Or not, either way i've already wasted too much time.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 9:44pm
Things aren't always what they seem. Like just the other day it seemed I lived in a country where I wouldn't be labeled an anti-semite for not caring for how the situation has worked out, how the 'lines in the sand' that were drawn have caused the majority of the turmoil. Who knew?
Is there more than one person posting with this screen name?
Yes there are 13 of us
Yes there are 13 of us Franks, all posting to label you an anti semite. We enjoy it. All thirteen of us really don't care if you don't care how the situation has worked out. I don't know what lines in the sand you are talking about, but okay.
LOL!
I am laughing NOT at the topic (which is quite serious) but at your comeback about all 13 of you...it finally made me smile today, so thank you Frank (and I mean all of you!).
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 10:23pm
There is some truth for you.
I believe
I believe that most everybody wants to see peace in the middle east, Look at Israel Egypt and Jordan, What happen there, My guess is that they talked to each other, And two of those countries payed a price for it , by the loss of their leaders. If i remember that right.
Negotiations must benefit both parties, in order for peace to work, And as in any negotiation one has to give a little and take a little.And not just one sided.
By getmad54January 7, 2009 - 10:27pm
Exactly.
Which is why the US stance that all that has to be done to stop the bloodshed is for Hamas and the rest of Palestine to just shut up and deal with it is a very unproductive method of finding lasting peace. Hence the never-ending inevitable flare-ups of war.
But in order for folks like Frank13 to understand, they must first grasp the 'lines in the sand' reference.
Well just explain what you
Well just explain what you mean. Can't grasp veiled rhetoric which can mean anything. So far you don't make much sense. Like if you don't care, why are you posting here?
Red Cross Reports Grisly Find in Gaza
Fucking bastards.
You know the right wing fools are all over this board with their usual screed: "Yes it's sad but if they hadn't elected hamas..."
So should we be like the right wingers?
"Yes Israel's stupidity will lead to Jews around the world being killed. Sad but if they hadn't supported such a barbaric regime..."
No. We are not like that. No matter what the latest sock puppet of our troll says.
By Frank13January 7, 2009 - 10:40pm
Why should I explain something to some asshole who's only purpose here is to label people as anti-semites?
Seriously, it isn't veiled rhetoric, if anything I thought it was fairly witty. It isn't my problem that you can't bone up on the history of an issue before you start spouting off from the fingers.
Have a wonderful evening.
I guess you are just too
I guess you are just too witty and smart to translate your gibberish. You then resort to poopy name calling to seal your point. I guess you can't control yourself. Brilliant commentary.