3 things to keep in mind during the Democratic Primary
Listen: Democratic Primary and White Voters
Upsetting the applecart in terms of what people will say about white voters in the Democratic Primary
- May 20, 2008
Upsetting the applecart in terms of what people will say about white voters in the Democratic Primary
taking care of your own house remark
NOT TRUE. She was talking about managing her own family. This is what the Clinton people and Clinton herself do.
Rachel. I can't believe you are falling for what so many others are: that Obama won't be tough with McCain. He has said OVER AND OVER that running against a fellow Dem is completely different from running in the general; that you don't damage your own. He has promised that he is tough enough when it will be appropriate and I believe him. Clinton hasn't cared how much she damages the other Dem. THAT IS WHY I CAN'T RESPECT CLINTON ANYMORE.
If she is willing to tell this many untruths while running, why should I believe she will suddenly start telling us nothing but the truth if she is elected? Bill told us one thing during campaign and did another; so did Bush. I WANT SOMEONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH ALL THE TIME
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By cheoMay 20, 2008 - 9:01pmA lesson in this
There is a lesson in this. Ask yourself, which Democrat candidate would prefer you know the facts about White working-class voters, and which would want you to misread the situation and believe falsehoods? The lesson here is that only one of the two main Democratic candidates has been fueling discord, and it is this one only that wants you to believe falsehoods.
Of course, for maximum television-readiness, it is important to assign blame equally, even if only one side actually controls the situation. What many people miss is that Hillary Clinton is in complete control of the discord--Obama does not provoke it and cannot stop it.
barry schwartz
blogging: http://chemoelectric.org
free stuff: http://crudfactory.com
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By chemoelectricMay 20, 2008 - 9:28pmEarly returns in Oregon
Obama, 63%, Clinton, 37%
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By capn_crustyMay 20, 2008 - 11:16pmLatest Returns in Oregon
Obama, 61%, Clinton, 39%.
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not by the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists"--Abbie Hoffman
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By capn_crustyMay 20, 2008 - 11:19pmEven LATER Returns in OR
Obama, 60%, Clinton, 40%.
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not by the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists"--Abbie Hoffman
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By capn_crustyMay 20, 2008 - 11:25pmStill Later Returns from OR
Obama, 60%, Clinton, 40%. Obama projected as winner at 8:30 PM, PST.
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not by the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists"--Abbie Hoffman
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By capn_crustyMay 20, 2008 - 11:29pmOh, and just for the illusion of complete coverage...
Returns from OR: McCain, 86%, Paul, 14%.
"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not by the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists"--Abbie Hoffman
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By capn_crustyMay 20, 2008 - 11:40pmWhen Edwards bowed out,
When Edwards bowed out, there was an argument in favor of him staying in – even tho he looked to get no better than 15% of the vote in most states. The idea was that he would rack up a solid little share of delegates (+24 when he quit) and use it to be influential (in terms of the platform, etc ) at the convention. The same logic applies about 1750 delegates more for Hillary.
Other than that, I'm amazed by the durability of Hillary's support. Most candidates lose vote when they are perceived as less likely to win.
but generally, you are right to be more interested in Cain.
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By zoomMay 21, 2008 - 2:59amI'm a Proud "Them"!
I am a "them"!
I love being a "them"!
I used to be a "them" to only Republicans.
The Clintons' used to court my "them-ness" but apparently I am not a sought after "them" any more.
At one time it was part of the American Dream to be a "them" but that time has passed.
I have become a demon-ized "them".
A lot of "everybodies in the know" tell me I am a "them" that does not need to work, I am a "them" that must have a trustfund, but they never say so explicitly, yet I wonder how the Clintons & the "everybodies" think "them" put food in their bellies, or how "them" put gas in their cars?
I wonder if there is a "them" ATM on every corner where "thems" like me can go to get free money by inserting their own personal "them" card, yet I've never seen any other "thems" doing this or for that matter the "them" machine.
I am a "them" that is now sexist, because I chose to think, but that has always been a problem of my type of "them" when we are a "them."
At one time, my "them" ancestors used what would now make them "them" to dodge the draft, but because they dodged the draft, they can now talk about how patriotic it is to die for your country and by doing so, they have exempted themselves from being "them." Apparently the training in alchemy allows those "thems" to convert back and forth as they wish from "them" to "not them."
The Clinton's were once "thems" but they seemed to use alchemy of a different sort to convert into "us."
Even the President is a "them" but because he didn't do too good in "them" training and might have done too much trying to make all "them" like him, he's lost his "them-ness" and was elected as an "us"-type of guy. What a joke on all the "us"es when they realized he wasn't an "us" but wasn't a "them" either. What was even worse, he liked to speak of all as "us" except those evil "thems" over there, which insulted all the "thems" here that were not like the "thems" over there at all!
Things were simpler only a few years ago, when us "thems" were happy to be "thems" according to Republicans, but now some Democrats of Power, consider us horrible, worthless "them" and we are angry. Us "thems" want our "us"es to stand for integrity and to stand up for what "us"es used to stand up for, but we have become only "thems" and we no longer matter or are entitled our beliefs.
On an up note, all us "thems" can get free stuff from the "them"machine. Now all I have to do is find the other "thems" as I hope they've found the "them"machine as I'm getting really hungry.
Do you know what "them" I am? Are you a "them" too and don't understand why?
Me either, but I'm glad a "them-squared" has risen out of the trash from which all of us "them" have been cast.
He comes with what would be considered a traditional "them-tripled", yet Clinton has attempted to strip away one of the "them" powers, so I don't know if she is a "them-tripled" or "them-squared"? I like the "them-tripled"!
That would make the combination "them-squared" plus "them-tripled" and that would be just great to me! "Thems" to powers are great!
"THEM" ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED!
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By borealdreamsMay 21, 2008 - 8:26amPlease Read
Somebody has finally said it, on Salon.
Title: Why don't those hillbillies like Obama?
Subtitle: Obama's "Appalachian problem" is a symptom of his party's larger "rural problem." But a new poll offers hope for the fall -- provided the Democrats show rural voters some respect.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/20/appalachia/index.html
Notable quotes:
"Many of those rural voters were Appalachian and blue collar, people who back before the name-calling were reliable Democrats."
"But lately, other than Edwards, we [rural Appalachian voters] haven't had many visitors. Maybe the party that once welcomed Appalachian coal miners and hillside farmers has moved on. The national Democratic Party has become younger, richer, hipper and far less interested in preserving an identity forged in the Great Depression. Who really wants a political party full of poor mountaineers?"
"How Obama fares in rural America may, in the end, have to do with whether he shows up."
What have I been saying for a long time on this blog? Maddow -- I understand what you said about voting patterns since after 1964. I get it. But you don't accept that that's the last chapter on hillbilly voting patterns, do you? Any party that gives up on these areas -- refuses to show up and ask for votes -- well, that's called "loss by default" (aka "surrender"). And the Roosevelt realignment proves that race is not the determinative issue here -- it's the economy.
The party that wants these votes will ask for them. The party that tries to unify people around the economy will do best. The party that drops the name-calling and mockery has a chance. The party that can get its head around the agrarian roots of rural populism has the best chance. This issue sweeps across race.
See, Preventing Black Farm Loss and Moving Toward a Sustainable Food System in North Carolina: Informing Policy (Alice Ammerman, Center for Health Promotion and Disease Prevention and Department of Nutrition, Schools of Public Health and Medicine)
This is not about any particular candidate -- it's about how the parties have behaved since '64. But I've said that about 100 times now.
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By essicMay 21, 2008 - 9:03amSalon op-ed piece
I dunno about that article. Have you read Brian Mann's "Welcome to the Homeland"?
And what is this tendency to describe Appalachia as chock full of coal deposits? We never had coal; coal would have meant jobs! In rural America, if you behave yourself and vote Republican long enough, eventually they'll build a prison in your area where all your untreated war veterans can get jobs as guards. If you're really lucky, they'll build the prison on an old landfill, thus combining waste management and "corrections."
Coal... The closest coal mining region to my Hazzard County dug too close to the Susquehanna river in 1959 and in one fell swoop drowned many workers, a system of interconnected mines, and an entire regional industry. We never had coal in my lifetime. Just deer.
All right, sorry about the vent. Must stop complaining and start working.
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By Buxtehude_BarbarossaMay 21, 2008 - 2:25pm"Coal" is shorthand for "poverty"
The real economy of the mountains is too difficult to describe in a sound-bite or a 700-word piece. Try explaining that there are people in my hometown trying to make food out of kudzu. First, you have to explain what kudzu is, where it came from (well-meaning outsiders who decided they knew better than the ignoramuses who'd farmed the land for hundreds of years), why Southerners resent it, what it does to farms and trees, etc. etc.
Or try explaining that poor rural America has a "dirt-eaters" tradition. Or try explaining gypsy moths, or why slavery never took hold in the mountains due to steep, rocky terrain (large-scale farming is impossible when the crops wash right down the hillside each spring). Or try explaining that the Virginia Department of Health waged a eugenics campaign against minorities in the hills in the 1910s to 1930s.
See what I mean? Easier to say "coal." Not as sad to say "coal."
You're right about the prisons. And the remote areas of rural Virginia, West Virginia, and North Carolina have another problem that's barely noticed -- trucks with northeastern license plates dumping toxic crap from barrels into rivers in the wee hours of the night.
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By essicMay 23, 2008 - 8:55pmIs anybody listening
Reality check for all of you caught-up in the Obama rallies and cries of Hope. How is he going to accomplish what he professes? He hasn’t given any real solutions except to say he a change candidate. What does change mean when you offer no real substance?
I’ve been a democrat for as far back as I can remember. We as Dems felt this way with John Kerry in 2004, only to see him become more concerned with bashing Hillary as a surrogate than doing his job.
Obama’s new electoral map seems more wishful thinking than practical. FL, OH and PA and we don’t have 8 years of George W. Bush. Our economy would be stronger and we wouldn’t be in debt from an endless war. How is Obama going to fix this? We don’t know, because it one thing to give speeches to large crowds and another to offer real leadership by way of solutions.
On the message of sexism and racism; yes sexism is still acceptable! The glass ceiling for women still exists. A woman winning the White House is a far greater change than a black male being elected in 2008.
Let’s not pretend that Hillary injected race, when it is our beloved Chris Matthews that first said Hillary won New Hampshire due to the Bradley Effect and had to issue an apology in the following days. I am not a Clinton Supporter, because Barack happens to be black. That is the furthest thing from my mind. I don’t support him because he offers me no real solutions.
This country needs real change not speeches. How can we say, Obama will reach across the isle, when he was a in the senate for 16 months when he decided to run for President. Now let’s talk about one’s personal agenda.
Let’s be honest the reason he is on the brink of winning the nomination isn’t because he is more qualified, he’s not and I’m sure the analyst will agree. It is because he raised more money. Don’t get me wrong, his machine is remarkable and a model for elections to come but the new voters that he is credited with are donating because they have bought into this message of Hope not realizing in the end; Hope without solutions is another lost election.
I hope I am wrong, but the Dems are in trouble come November. We have one candidate that is more than qualified and one candidate that people like more including the media. Let’s hope that the super delegates can stay above the hype of the campaign and do their job and give us a candidate that can win the General Election in November and turn this ailing country around.
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By James-La Quinta CAMay 21, 2008 - 4:03pmJames
James take it easy. throw some cold water on your face. Obama has plenty of substance. He's a wonky dude - go check out his website for policy positions. Randomly, alot of republicans like Obama, so he has a potential to pull from the center. Rank & file republicans would have to admit to having been wrong this whole time to vote for a Clinton, so maybe an entirely new person is easier for them.
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By zoomMay 21, 2008 - 4:28pm@ James pt 1. How do you
@ James
pt 1. How do you bring change if you have become the "what" people want to change?
pt 2. we did not feel "this way" about way about Kerry, Gore yes, Kerry no. He was a sad reflection of all the Dems could muster in 2004, just as McCain has become the best the R's can muster this year.
pt 3. I am tired of counting solely on "Ohio" to deliver the WH, when 2 elections in a row they have voted against their own best interests. I am willing to consider the "new electoral map" offered, given the rust belt continues to atrophy & brain drain to the West, who's states grow & increases % of those not content with the status quo.
pt 4. Hillary never reconciled her vote to authorize war, that is the underlying reason why she did not wrap up the nomination months ago.
pt 5. Hillary has crossed the line so far, she is losing her identity as a Dem. i.e., Iran & Gas tax Holiday.
pt 6. now because Hillary didn't raise as much money it is the Obama's fault? Hello, you fail to remember she has the bully-pulpit of Bill, who raises $millions giving speechs, to more than compensate getting out Hillary's message. Hillary had fame to boot going into this, that Obama did not, so your point is moot and airs of "jealousy" & envy.
Bill spent the better part of a week before the Oregon elections courting the rural voters, to the tune of about 30,000 voters not to mention Hillary' & Chelsea's visits. Obama rallied his supporters in 2 & 1/2 days, spending under 1 day in the real non-urban areas of Oregon. For the most part they split the vote in the rural areas. If Bill Clinton can't rally the supporters over 7 days, then what does that say about Hillary's popularity and ideas?
We have a tough job of both carrying the Dem Presidential in this "not all liberal" state let alone a very difficult campaign of booting Gorden Smith, that we no longer need this decisiveness to turn away any single democratic voter that we need each & every one to get Smith out of his rural supported entrenched position.
Pt. 7 Hope is what we all crave and what we all need, not pander & devision.
ps if not caught above in my quirky post, I am sick of being characterized by HRC as having a silver spoon in my mouth because i have a degree. I have to work hard every day to make ends meet to, so why am I not "working class" also?
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By borealdreamsMay 21, 2008 - 8:39pmSexism Claim by HRC: NOTHING MORE THAN A POLITICAL PLOY
Rachel,
Just heard you buy in to the horse pucky crap HRC is now spreading, and all you women are buying, about sexism in this race.
HRC uses every excuse in the book for why she is LOSING this UGLY campaign she has run riding on the coatails of her husband's name (she has acheived NOTHING of significance in her public life).
She is spreading this sexist claim about glass ceilings (RUSH LIMBAUGH started this bull on his show after she lost NC and barely won due to RUSH L. help). Did you not listen to the right wing play into this narrative??
HRC is LOSING because she acts like a REPUBLICAN NEOCON and has run a NASTY, UGLY campaign and managed her debt BADLY.
This lying, pandering, women is the feminist idea of a candidate they want representing them?
Not me.
I am a professional woman who has worked with men for decades and HRC is NOT someone I would want on my team. How quickly you all forget.
What whiners you women are, just like HRC.
HRC Is the WRONG WOMAN that is the problem, HRC HERSELF. She did herself in.
You are all such whiners.
If you want the job of a man, trust me, you have to grow up, and act like a man.
HRC acts like a child. Just because you work hard in this world does NOT mean you are qualified or entitled to the job.
What world of work are you all living in?
You should be ashamed of yourselves for empowering this ugly, nasty person.
I would like a woman in office, but not one with the ethics and characteristics of the neocons we are trying to get rid of?
What is wrong with you women?
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By tamitMay 21, 2008 - 10:37pmClinton Strategy/Democratic Convention
Which is worse, sexism, racism or anti-Semitism?
So what tactic is she using today? Will she continue on racism issues? What about the veiled anti-Semitism? Oh that's right, she using the sexism ploy now.
I am beyond heartbroken that in four states, 20-25% of the people exiting voting polls actually admitted that their votes were racially based. This is unbelievable and despicable! In the interest of encouraging honest and constructive dialogue, I would like to share a link to a video of Mr. Tim Wise presenting his theory of "The Creation of Whiteness".
http://www.redroom.com/video/tim-wise-creation-whiteness-clip
This theory explains the historical roots of racism in our country and its context to current problems. I remember quite distinctly the debate wherein Clinton insisted that Obama use specific language to denounce renounce and reject an anti-Semitic supporter. Am I the only person that sees the hypocrisy in Clinton accepting and boasting the support of white racists?
Which leads me to ask; how in the world could she be proud of that kind of a win? Further to that, by being proud of those wins, she is saying to every ethnic group that has been supporting her, "Hey people of every other color than white, look at how I devalue your importance to me by accepting all my white racist supporters!" How does Andrew Young and all the other ethnic supporters continue to stand by her? In essence she is saying that it is okay to be racist. How is that any better than being anti-Semitic?
If she argues sexism, that really falls flat for me. She came out of the election block with the highest namebrand recognition. Her husband is a former President, of popular and controversial fame. She also commanded extreme support of the big money donors in the party. Sexism implies disadvantage and when you look at the majority of the mainstream media play that she has received, she can not argue disadvantage.
Are Clinton supporters saying that being anti-Semitic is worse than being racist, or now is sexism worse? For thinking people everywhere, all three are completely despicable. This can not stand as acceptable to anyone, other than a racist or a bigot. Please view this video and let us all start to communicate towards solutions that value the preciousness of everyone.
So here is the larger personal question, how can I as a Hispanic woman and Democrat support her if she seeks the support of white racists? I could never support McCain for reasons related to the religious supporters that he seeks such as Reverend Rod Parsley, and Reverend John Hagee either. For anyone with principles and convictions, this is an impossible situation.
Deeply disappointed and bitter, rural voter
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By MaggieSpicMay 22, 2008 - 2:25pm