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Bush Stays One Step Behind Leak Scandal
News:
After days of remaining mute while anonymous White House officials took his excuse for a few test laps, President Bush finally stood up yesterday and told an audience what it already knew: he ordered the leaking of highly classified intelligence reports to counter public skepticism of his case for invading Iraq. Bush sought to spin the leak as a public service, without explaining why he felt the need to obscure the source of the information; when facing questions about whether the leak was part of a larger campaign to smear former ambassador Joe Wilson—as is certainly special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s suspicion—the president once again became reluctant to comment on an “ongoing legal proceeding”.
A public service?
Yeah, I'm sure the NSA spying program is a "public service" as well. And when we kill Iraqi citizens, that's a public service as well. And when we rape the student loan program, that's a public service as well. And the huge deficit, and the skyrocketing national debt, those are public services as well.
I'm so glad Dubya is so concerned with public service. Perhaps he can do the public a huge service... and resign.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
If it was only
that simple. All presidential administrations (and, for that matter, practically all elected groups, from school boards on up) are self-serving. Occasionally, the people they purport to represent are benefitted, sometimes, they aren't. I'm sure the Kansas school board members who insisted on "both sides" in the evolution debate being represented in the science curriculum thought they were doing a swell job. So what, if they wanted to establish a mid-west branch of the Flat Earth Society. They thought they had the sway to make it happen, and for a while, they did. Once they made everyone around them look as stupid as a bag of rocks, out they went.
Unfortunately, Shrub and the junta have honed the skill of setting up fall guys for everything they do. They don't only spin information in a self-serving manner. They operate from a position of leadership through fear and intimidation. They actively go after anyone they think will prove an impediment to their schemes.
Remember how greenhouse gases were eliminated from the NOAA report on climate change. Same as the EPA report where text critical of the administration was deleted. Not derided or minimized, but entirely deleted. Not surprising given the representation of pharmaceutical company board members in the administration (including Rummy). It's been a standard practice (and poorly kept secret) for drug companies to only present those data that promote the use of their products. Sound familiar?
The Death of a Nation
It is still we the people who decide what our government is, whether a despotism or republic. We can work to oust all the lazy, kept, bought, spineless DEms, and take back the government. Or we can continue down the road of worthless public education, where here in Ma. we're cutting back on History, 'because it's not asked on the MCAS'. Ass backwards educational standards: where our kids are trained to be databases, not thinking, analytical Americans who know when they're being fed bullshit.
Until we get behind, say, Ned Lamont, or the 50 vets who are running against the CO-addled Dem incumbents, .....and ensure they pass a law that allows ONLY taxpayer funded elections, we'll be owned by the corporations now ruining our country.
With an ignorant citizenship, with a corrupt citizenship, our 'delicate experiment called 'democracy' is doomed.
DeTocqueville said that in 1842, about. John Quincy Adams said, not if, but "When the people become corrupt, despotism is the only form of government they can handle."
He who is silent in times like these is a coward and not worthy of existing in a republic. A peasant in a business suit comprises the 37% who STILL think this illegal president O.K.
Bush is a mass murderer and the entire junta should be impeach
patriot
the repubs are in control. you should be happy.
MT--Tushe' ! "Patriot" Archy Bunker is railing against wrong cr
MT--Tushe' ! "Patriot" Archy Bunker is railing against wrong crowd.
It's the fuckin'cons who control EVERYTHING!!
Don't tell me there is NOOOOOOOO difference between Democrats and CONS.
Geeeeeeezuuus !!!!
amen
the dems are certainly not perfect, but they are all we've got.
amen
the dems are certainly not perfect, but they are all we've got.
Their silence betrays their guilt.
Perhaps in the end Bush will be found innocent of any illegal action, but just like Cheney after he drunkenly shot his friend, Bush knows he has done something terribly wrong. In all things dubious, when Bush believes he’s right he stands up immediately to say so for every one to hear. He knows he has plainly and unquestionably deceived the American people for YEARS over this action and now everyone knows it. His investment in deceit is paying tax free dividends in disgrace. He gets to keep every bit of ill will his actions generate. I’ve worked in a therapeutic setting with pathological liars and his behavior fits the patterns I saw with them. Start with one self serving lie, big or small, and when it stands to be scrutinized pile so many lies on top of it that the truth becomes foreign to you. You start to live in those lies, and even when you are forced to admit that things you’ve said aren’t true you taint your confessions with more self serving fiction. Bush cannot get ahead of this story for two reasons one is personal and one is practical. To come clean about this would be antithetical to the identity Bush has constructed for himself during his presidency and perhaps his whole life, his pride will not allow it. Now we can see, perhaps, why pride is the foremost of sins. The practical reason is that Honesty is not part of Bushes political agenda and so investing the energy to rebuild his public support would distract him for the business he is about. He knows that to go down that road will further discredit his already dubious mission, handing the nation over to the wealthy. Bush is now completely unable to lead this country, no one believes his swagger. W stands for dubious.
What's the problem?
Commander Bush is only employing a strategy long ago legitimized by the far religious right. When one is dealing with democrats, progressives, confused independents and others who disagree, it is perfectly acceptable to lie to them because they are the puppets of Satan. Because the vile toxins of satanically induced independent thinking have poisoned their minds, they must be manipulated with necessary fictions.
Goldwater said it 4 decades ago. “Extremism in the cause of justice is no vice.
I Don't Think Bush is Really That Religious. . .
This seems to come up a lot - Randi talked about it on her show yesterday - that these conservatives believe in Revelations and Armageddon and everything that accompanies it. I don't think Bush is particularly religious - I think it's all an act to pander to that wing of his party. Truly spiritual people don't feel the need to broadcast it in the manner he has (think 'crusades', saying God told him to do certain things, etc.) One of the most moral and spiritual people ever in the White House was Jimmy Carter - and he didn't have to proclaim it every day.
Instead of giving them their desired mantle of 'righteous indignation', I prefer to call it like I see it - fear mongering and war profiteering.
Jimmy Carter, George Bush, ye shall.....
.......be known by your works.....
They can say whatever nonsensical thing that may come into their heads, but you will KNOW them by what they DO. That's the traditional rendering, if you want modern....
If you talk the talk, better walk the walk.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
cult leaders
Bush and this administration, including cheerleadres like Pat Robertson are as religious and spiritual as your average cult leader. Where's Janet Reno when you need her to get the ATF to raid the ranch at Crawford, TX?
For the record, I would prefer their incarceration to how Waco played out.
Speak The Word. Revolution! "Operation: Mindcrime" -Queensryche
SowK--"The Promiseland"--Queensryche !! Rocks
SowK--"The Promiseland"--Queensryche !!
I love that song. Lyrics and everything.
I juxtapose it with my "Dante' Symphony" by franz Lizst at parties.
Freaks people out. Heavy metal next to trancendant classical piece.
Hey, don't knock it 'till ya try it.
Religion
Many liberals would label themselves "spiritual but not religious." I would characterize the neocons and chicken hawks as religious but not spiritual. They take their orders from a flat, rigid dogma that tells them what to think. Most spiritual orientations e.g. compassion, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, and yes integrity are actually liberal sentiments that are largely repugnant to neo-cons.
If you look at the massive lie campaigns assembled by Jesus-blessed millionaires like Mellon-Scaife, James Dobson et al you can see in boldface religion operating quite happily in the absence of spirituality
Can I get an........
......amen, brother?
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Amen.
And Blessed Be.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Gerardo--Amen #2 bro. piercing observation
Gerardo--Amen #2 bro. piercing observation.
Cuts right thru the haze
Who do they think they are kidding?
The Bush administration is a very self serving organization. If saying something will help their image they'll say it, if saying something will harm their image they won't say it. They constantly use the excuse of not discussing an on going investigation to avoid a topic they don't want to discuss, however if it is a topic they want to discuss they will discuss it inspite of any current investigations. They evidence seems to suggest they will even declassify information soly for political reasons with little regard for national security. Likewise they will classify information that has no national security value for political reasons. They use a double standard in this regard, and I think most Americans realize this. In the Bush Administration silence is an admittion of guilt. Who do they think they are kidding?
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
All this talk about lying
All this talk about lying and deceiving, it sounds to me like your talking about Clinton.............. For years you all have been asking Quote:"What did he know and when did he know it" So he declassified some information that IN NO WAY PUT OUR COUNTRY IN HARMS WAY" Not like Clinton who under his admin gave China the keys to hard chip technologies and multiple war head capabilities. But that was then correct? That is a typical LIB response. NO OUTCRY ABOUT THAT. You are all nothing but a bunch of SOCIALIST who will spin this country in turmoil. Full medical benefits for everybody? ON WHO'S DIME, MINE? I already pay too much and owed more for 05 tax season. Take more for me and you will have big problems... LOOK at NJ, a state I live in with a Governor that claimed he wouldn't raise taxes.... We laughed about that and bet some LIBs that that would happen.... Guess what it did and guess where his approval rating is... IN THE CRAPPER. Why because when he raised taxes people were surprised (Ignorant LIBs that seem to vote that way based on a 30 sec. sound bite on TV)and spoke up about it. It didn't take my party to try and vilify the guy. People just woke up and said he lied... Oh like that was any secret that taxes would go up... JOKE. WHY DOSEN'T YOUR PARTY RUN ON WHAT THEY REALY INTEND TO DO IF (A BIG WORD)THEY GET POWER BACK. It won't take a bunch of conservatives to turn the people against your party of big government higher taxes pushing for some sort of socialist utopia. They will reject your party altogether. YOU ARE ALL NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF SOCIALIST.
" I already pay too much and owed more for 05 tax season"
What??? You mean you didn't benefit from Dumbya's swell tax cuts?
And why are you always so pissed JPN?? After all, you're living in Bush's conservative utopia, aren't you?
We're all socialists eh? Well, as always, one should be judged by the company one keeps. So tell me again... why are you always hanging around here?
BTW... better socialists than FASCIST PIGS.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Good question???????? I ask
Good question???????? I ask myself that as well as my Repub. friends.... I don't have an answer to that other then it passes time in my boring "sit and wait for problems to happen" JOB.
Conlet returns, still hasn't read......
.....any of our responses, or doesn't remember.
"All this talk about lying and deceiving, it sounds to me like your talking about Clinton"
"Well, that didn't take long. But "When Clinton lied, nobody died...unlike the Bush Crime Family, Inc. ..............
"For years you all have been asking Quote:"What did he know and when did he know it"
That started with the Criminal Enterprise known as the Nixon Administration. Turns out he knew everything, and he knew it from day one. And then we asked it about the Criminal Enterprise known as the Reagan Administration....he didn't know anything, ever, but his handlers/keepers did. Nah, Ronnie was in on it, too.
"So he declassified some information that IN NO WAY PUT OUR COUNTRY IN HARMS WAY"
He did declassify SOME, not all of a document. Whether that "declassification" is part of a coverup for criminal action (and the "declassification" may be shaky, too...as we have heard, there may be a process and rules for declassification which Bushbaby violated. Regardless, he participated in the outting of an undercover operative for the CIA and, more importantly, the destruction of a very valuable brass-plate cover...Brewster-Jennings, which gave us access to information regarding nuclear proliferation, particularly in the middle-east. Destroying that may very well end up getting us nuked.....AND I WOULD CALL THAT PUTTING US "IN HARMS WAY"
" Not like Clinton who under his admin gave China the keys to hard chip technologies and multiple war head capabilities. But that was then correct? That is a typical LIB response. NO OUTCRY ABOUT THAT.
Jeeezus....you obviously didn't read the multiple reponses this drivel got the LAST time you trotted out your little bullet point. Yes, here's my outcry...."THANK YOU BILL CLINTON FOR BEING SMARTER THAN YOUR CRITICS!!! Feeding selected information to KEEP OUR ENEMIES CLOSE is good statesmanship, good defense. Thanks, Bill...or an Thanks Ronnie RAYGUN for GIVING the Soviets our SOLID-ROCKET fuel technology, for the same reason.
"You are all nothing but a bunch of SOCIALIST who will spin this country in turmoil."
Yeah, yeah.....yawwwwwnnnn.... Prove it.
"Full medical benefits for everybody? ON WHO'S DIME, MINE?
Well, yeah, and mine too. Look Con-boy...YOU ALREADY PAY FOR IT....GET IT? PEOPLE WITH NO MEDICAL INSURANCE GO TO PUBLIC HOSPITALS' EMERGENCY ROOMS FOR TREATMENT, WHERE THE COSTS ARE MORE THAN DOUBLE, USUALLY TRIPLE WHAT A TRIP TO A DOCTOR COSTS A PERSON WITH A MEDICAL PLAN. A WELL-RUN GOVERNMENT MEDICAL PLAN IS....LISTEN TO THIS....CHEAPER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW, PRODUCES BETTER RESULTS, AND PROMOTES THE OVERALL HEALTH OF THE COMMUNITY. SO YEAH, YOUR DIME, AND MINE, AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S.
"I already pay too much and owed more for 05 tax season."
Ok, I'll ask this a THIRD time, you haven't answered the last two times, but libs tend to be optimists....HOW MUCH SHOULD YOU PAY? WHAT PERCENT OF YOUR INCOME SHOULD BE TAXED, and should it be a tax on all income, earned and unearned?
"Take more for [from?] me and you will have big problems"
Sounds like YOU will have the problems....I COLLECT those government checks, so I need you to pay more....inflation, you know.
... LOOK at NJ, a state I live in with a Governor that claimed he wouldn't raise taxes.... We laughed about that and bet some LIBs that that would happen.... Guess what it did and guess where his approval rating is... IN THE CRAPPER. Why because when he raised taxes people were surprised (Ignorant LIBs that seem to vote that way based on a 30 sec. sound bite on TV)and spoke up about it. It didn't take my party to try and vilify the guy. People just woke up and said he lied... Oh like that was any secret that taxes would go up"
Answer this....WHY did he raise taxes? What reality of governance did he encounter that would cause him to do something that hurt (and he KNEW would hurt) his political career? I suppose you know that the States, generally, aren't allowed to run deficits, like the Federal Government can, and does. If the state comes up against a significant shortfall, the taxes have to go up, or spending has to go down. The governor has limited influence on either, as these are handled by the State elected officials. But, once he made a promise like that, he set himself up.
And what's the point? That people don't like paying taxes? Duh. But they also don't like having sewer lines fail, potholes, bridges that crumble into the rivers, intermittent water service, garbage building up on the curb, rats running amok, etc. Ya pay for what ya get....but ya don't always get what ya pay for.
... "JOKE. WHY DOSEN'T YOUR PARTY RUN ON WHAT THEY REALY INTEND TO DO IF (A BIG WORD)THEY GET POWER BACK."
Hey Sparky, who do you think is going to pay the huge deficits (loans....with interest) that YOUR boy and the other Puds are running up? Get it through your head....this is TAX money they are spending and they are borrowing against future tax revenues....meaning you will get to pay those taxes after they have built up a bundle of interest....now, remember that I am profiting from this, as I have purchased some of the debt, so I am glad you will be sending me my money so that I can continue my comfortable life here in America's Pacific Paradise. So, thanks for supporting these Con idiots and making my life easier.
"It won't take a bunch of conservatives to turn the people against your party of big government higher taxes pushing for some sort of socialist utopia. "
Hey Sparky, the people have ALREADY turned against YOUR party of HUGE and INTRUSIVE Government and ENORMOUS Debt and PORK.....oh and Corruption...and war....and death....and all that crap. Take a look at the POLL NUMBERS!
"They will reject your party altogether."
As usual, Bass-ackwards....35% and DROPPING!
"YOU ARE ALL NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF SOCIALIST."
...EHHHH, and what's yer point?
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Regardless, he participated
Regardless, he participated in the outing of an undercover operative for the CIA and, more importantly, the destruction of a very valuable brass-plate cover
PROVE IT....... It's all hot air right now.
THANK YOU BILL CLINTON FOR BEING SMARTER THAN YOUR CRITICS!!! Feeding selected information to KEEP OUR ENEMIES CLOSE is good statesmanship, good defense.
Try for campaign cash... He sold us out....
It won't take a bunch of conservatives to turn the people against your party of big government higher taxes pushing for some sort of socialist utopia. "
Hey Sparky, the people have ALREADY turned against YOUR party of HUGE and INTRUSIVE Government and ENORMOUS Debt and PORK.....oh and Corruption...and war....and death....and all that crap. Take a look at the POLL NUMBERS!
Means nothing when the truth is what it is THE TRUTH the numbers will go back up.
Too much taxes slows the economy down people don't spend as much. This leads to job declines. NJ there are more people moving out of this state then coming in BIG BUSINESS another concept you all seem to despise is moving too. Question who picks up the tab we do..... It is getting harder to live in this state. Who is the majority party in this state? Democrats......... They always were. That is why this state is in shambles.
My point about the SOCIALIST COMMENT IS THIS..... BEFORE WE ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, YOU MUST DISTROY US..... I WELCOME THE DAY YOU ALL TRY.
Notice how I don't correct all your Typo's? You guys tear a person up and say ya see he can't spell he must be stupid but then again you must be too.
What absolute drivel.
And the scariest part is, you actually believe the fecal material coming out of your mouth.
Let me get this straight... you accuse the Dems. of "INTRUSIVE" government when Bushboy authorized an illegal domestic spying program.
You accuse the Dems. of Pork when your republican congress defeated their own immigration bill by tacking 397 amendments onto it.
You accuse the Dems. of creating "ENORMOUS Debt" when it's Bushboy, aided by his republican congress who took us from record surplus to record deficit.
Y'know, there's a clinical term for this... it's called DELUSIONAL.
Yep, keep drinking the kool-aid JPN. And have fun explaining to your children how you helped fuck up their future.
God Bless America.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Hey, cool, .....
....a point-by-point response, finally, from the Con-let. Not exactly brilliant prose, but it's a start.
""Regardless, he participated in the outing of an undercover operative for the CIA and, more importantly, the destruction of a very valuable brass-plate cover"
"PROVE IT....... It's all hot air right now."
That's what will devolve from the investigation. These guys cover their tracks pretty well, so we'll have to see what Fitzgerald puts together...the good thing is that Bush is on his way out, and party loyalists don't have as much Bush loyalty anymore.
""THANK YOU BILL CLINTON FOR BEING SMARTER THAN YOUR CRITICS!!! Feeding selected information to KEEP OUR ENEMIES CLOSE is good statesmanship, good defense.""
"Try for campaign cash... He sold us out...."
I disagree. If he got money AND supported his oath to defend the country at the same time...cool.
It won't take a bunch of conservatives to turn the people against your party of big government higher taxes pushing for some sort of socialist utopia. "
""Hey Sparky, the people have ALREADY turned against YOUR party of HUGE and INTRUSIVE Government and ENORMOUS Debt and PORK.....oh and Corruption...and war....and death....and all that crap. Take a look at the POLL NUMBERS!""
"Means nothing when the truth is what it is THE TRUTH the numbers will go back up. "
Can't be "truth" until it happens....it's only HOPE, and a pretty slim hope, at this point.
"Too much taxes slows the economy down people don't spend as much. This leads to job declines."
And too little tax revenue and the infrastructure collapses. Our (Dem) mayor for a decade needed to deal with shrinking tax revenues as the economy slumped after the Japanese bubble burst and they stopped coming here and investing in local businesses. Roads were patched instead of being resurfaced, sewers were fixed temporarily, a lot of infrastructure repair wasn't done. We just had 6 weeks of rain, culminating in a day of deluge. Now...the road patches have come up...some of them are big enough to close lanes on the freeway...I'll bet there has been over a half million dollars damage to cars because of the road conditions, plus a lot of commuting delays. We had a sewer break that send record amounts of sewage into the ocean and boat harbor. These are all related to low tax revenues and the necessity of deferring maintenance and replacement. Too low taxes are a bad thing, too.
So, where is the ideal level, Jason?? Come on, give me your analysis.
"NJ there are more people moving out of this state then coming in BIG BUSINESS another concept you all seem to despise is moving too."
Wanna bet that a lot of them are moving OUT OF THE COUNTRY, and not just to low-tax states of the US??? Thank your Bushbaby for that....and Bill Clinton, too...he sort of supported NAFTA. Question who picks up the tab we do"
Thats right, since you are still there and using the infrastructure and services provided.
" It is getting harder to live in this state. Who is the majority party in this state? Democrats......... They always were. That is why this state is in shambles. "
If that's true, why do the people of NJ keep electing them? I suspect that the problems are a lot deeper and more diverse than just which party is in power in your state.
And you better believe it's getting harder to live in the UNITED STATES....all of them, yours included.
My point about the SOCIALIST COMMENT IS THIS..... BEFORE WE ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, YOU MUST DISTROY US..... I WELCOME THE DAY YOU ALL TRY."
Nah, we win the election, I'll bet you don't die, or move. You'll just enjoy the fruits of our labors....on the sly, of course...you wouldn't want your con buddies to know that you are enjoying any benefits from Lib changes.
"Notice how I don't correct all your Typo's? You guys tear a person up and say ya see he can't spell he must be stupid but then again you must be too."
Typos??? Such as?......
And, I don't think bad spelling is a sign of intellectual ineptituce. I think that the inability to express yourself verbally is a good sign of a mind that is less-than-facile with concepts. Like Dumbya.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Rock, You Rock!
Well done. Thank you. In my comment to JPN, I knew the reference to the UN would lead to a Pavlovian reaction. His form of salivation: FUCK the UN! Except Resolution 1441 was given as the justification for launching the invasion of Iraq and the Colin Powell cartoon show was presented to give the administration a blue and white figleaf for their invasion. The Afghan invasion was sanctioned by the U.N. It hasn't been a roaring success, but guess what: Some of the most grueling fighting in that country has been undertaken by nations that opposed the Iraq action:
French Foreign Legionnaires & Airborne
Dutch Special Forces
Belgian Paracommandos
German infantry & airborne
Many of these forces have been stationed in the outer provinces, away from Kandahar where the warlords hold sway. It doesn't lessen the contribution made by our troops. Quite the contrary, it shows when the action is justifiable, we can count on the countries that don't always agree with us, but who have our backs when it counts.
To lambast the U.N. and "old Europe" as to blame for nay-saying, rather than being good allies, is like getting pie-eyed and starting a bar fight everyone knows you're going to lose, and blaming the friends who tried telling you repeatedly you had too much to drink, and stop picking fights.
The U.S. has gone it alone before. More often, we can count on the contribution and goodwill of other nations. That's enhanced when we are in the right. The arrogance of these bastards in saying, "You're with us or against us" managed to take sympathy for the U.S. from all-time highs to all-time lows. Sort of a funhouse mirror view of the domestic situation.
For a party that mouths fealty to personal responsibility, Republicans seem to have an aversion to taking responsiblity for anything.
If it were just a matter of Shrub being dumb (like Dan Quayle), he'd be funny. It isn't. His arrogance extends to dismissing science and evidence in favor of his gut feeling. Now I suppose it's easier to get a read on your gut when you perpetually have your head up your ass, as Shrub does, but even then...
Dave--Precisly. Sen. Biden made keen observation on B.Mahr's s
Dave--Precisly. Sen. Biden made keen observation on B.Mahr's show regarding Dumbya's "instincts".
The panel was discussing Bush & prayer,etc.
Biden said, "the scary thing is that I believe Bush makes decisions with his "gut" and then prays that he's right!!
W's got it ass-backwards !!!
Buwaaaaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaa.... uhhhh,oh shit waaaaa aaaaaa aaa
i believe
three reporters have testified that karl rove and libby told them that joe wilson's wife works for the cia. but rove has not been fired.
well, i know two reporters have said that. maybe novak too.
I guess Bush letting China
I guess Bush letting China buy a large portion of our national debt isn't dangerous? It makes me pretty scared. This guy LITERALLY sold us out to China!
I just love how these
I just love how these neo-cons like to point the finger at Clinton who has been out of office for over 5 years. Move on! At least we liberals were strong enough to openly say that we were disgusted by OUR president's reprehensible behavior which did not result in any death, by the way! We held him responsible for his actions and he was impeached BIpartisanly. Will that happen to the idiot frat boy from Crawford TX? No! They are going to point the fingers at the Democrats and talk about things that happened over 5 and going on 10 years ago!
Guys, we have to focus on getting Democrats back into Congress so that we can get back the checks and balances we so sorely need! It's so funny how Democrats always have to clean up the mess Republicans leave behind! Some may say the Dems may not have a clue on what to do with this mess that was made by guess who, the Republicans again(I, at times, feel the same way.)! However, I think America might be willing to find out what the Democrats may end up doing if given back control of Congress.
I am not going to let the blowhard neocons, like the wacko on this page, zap anymore energy from me. What IS worth using my energy on is "witnessing" to the rest of the nation how ANTI-Christian the Republican party as a whole (There are some good moderate Republicans out there. It's just too bad that they are not the majority in the GOP) actually is! How would Jesus vote, if he decided to get involved with man's government at all? He certainly would not vote for people who don't give a damn for anyone besides the big corporations just because they "claim" they are against abortion and gays!
PS: Rocklib, you definitely do ROCK!!!
Al, is that you?
Peace NOW
This is a bad joke, right? This is Al Franken pulling our legs, right? No one is that naive or stupid. Al, that's a good one, but please stop; you're scaring us.
Hey JPN
One: I don't actually remember many of the details about the clinton administration, though from reading other's responses to you constant clinton references I gather that you are discussing some scandal that Clinton was never actually implicated in, and that you are drawing conclusions about his involvemnt with no evidence to support it. Yet, I must admit i can't really say from experience I am only a college freshman right now so you can understand how my memory of the 90's could be a little bit foggy, especially Clinton's first term.
Second, why do you think a democratic govenor would want to raise taxes now? Could it be that the cuts in federal spending and the cuts in federal taxes has shifted much of the burden from the federal level to the states? No, that be to logical, that couldn't happen right? Wrong! What good Bush's tax cuts do you if it forces states to raise taxes in order to take up the federal governments slack.
Finally, you are right that lying can really tank you approval ratings, ever wonder why Bush's ratings are in the 30's consistantly? Could it be that he has no credibillity because he has been caught lying to many times? Lets see if that can sink in, though I have a feeling not even one of Bush's nuclear bunker busters could crack your thick skull.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
And....
...a little more history.....During Clinton's impeachment trial...for perjury under oath about whether or not he had sex with an intern, his approval ratings were, and stayed, in the 60+% range. So, lying CAN be hard on your approval, but being an incompetent, hypocritical bonebrain seems to be worse.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
And....
...you are dead on concerning the transfer of tax burden to the States along with the obligations. Not a bad thing, as I support a tax system that follows the responsibility, but you have to calculate that in when looking at where your taxes are going. If you get a tax break from the Feds, but your State tax goes up, then look at how much of the work of government is being done for you at the two levels. If the Feds eliminate a program that is needed in your state, and the state picks up the bill, your taxes didn't go up, or down, they are being transferred from Fed collection to State collection.
And, in the end, it isn't about how big or small or expensive government is, it's about what you get for your money....a cheap government which does nothing is too expensive. A good government which does good things is ............... priceless.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
jpn
clinton is not president anymore. did you know that?
JPN...pull your head out
JPN,
Bush's policies and actions not putting our country "in harms way"? Please...acting as the poster boy for al Qaeda recruitment by torture and mistreatment of "detainees" (the MAJORITY of whom were/are innocent, BTW).."burning" an intelligence source by revealing we had an al Qaeda operative in custody with his laptop ( a source of, at the time, current intelligence info) for his own political advantage...revealing the identity of a COVERT (yes, she WAS covert)CIA operative for political gain and revenge (see a pattern, JPN?)...NOT listening to military leaders in conducting a war taht shouldn't have been launched in the first place...launching a first strike against a country who posed no imminent threat (this justifies a first strike by ANY country against ANY other country, JPN)...alienating other countries rather than building alliances through his dishonesty and recklessness -ALL of these things endanger America, JPN.
JPN, when you find an intelligent thought, be sure to let us all know -I'm sure we'd all like to pat you on the head in unexpected awe and admiration...
Rick
All this talk about lying and deceiving, it sounds to me like your talking about Clinton.............. For years you all have been asking Quote:"What did he know and when did he know it" So he declassified some information that IN NO WAY PUT OUR COUNTRY IN HARMS WAY" Not like Clinton who under his admin gave China the keys to hard chip technologies and multiple war head capabilities. But that was then correct? That is a typical LIB response. NO OUTCRY ABOUT THAT. You are all nothing but a bunch of SOCIALIST who will spin this country in turmoil. Full medical benefits for everybody? ON WHO'S DIME, MINE? I already pay too much and owed more for 05 tax season. Take more for me and you will have big problems... LOOK at NJ, a state I live in with a Governor that claimed he wouldn't raise taxes.... We laughed about that and bet some LIBs that that would happen.... Guess what it did and guess where his approval rating is... IN THE CRAPPER. Why because when he raised taxes people were surprised (Ignorant LIBs that seem to vote that way based on a 30 sec. sound bite on TV)and spoke up about it. It didn't take my party to try and vilify the guy. People just woke up and said he lied... Oh like that was any secret that taxes would go up... JOKE. WHY DOSEN'T YOUR PARTY RUN ON WHAT THEY REALY INTEND TO DO IF (A BIG WORD)THEY GET POWER BACK. It won't take a bunch of conservatives to turn the people against your party of big government higher taxes pushing for some sort of socialist utopia. They will reject your party altogether. YOU ARE ALL NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF SOCIALIST.
Submitted by JPN on April 11, 2006 - 12:19pm
So does this mean Bush will fire...himself???
Bush talking to reporters in Chicago, Sept 30th 2003
"There's just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of."
"taken care of"
See, Shrubis actually smart....a person caught leaking will be "taken care of." Probably like when you screw up in his administration, you get a medal. Georgie will give himself a medal for leaking. "Heck of a job Dumbya."
Let's go back and see how
Let's go back and see how many Socialist, I mean Democrats leaked?
Wow....
Did you think of that comeback all by yourself???
So, anyways, when is the last time a Democrat leaked (false) info to get us into an illegal war? And even if it ever happened, it wouldn't make what Bush did right. Can you follow that simple logic JPN?????
Are you kidding?
JPN still believes Nixon when he said "I'm no crook."
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Ya and it came to me real
Ya and it came to me real quick too....FALSE? WHEN WAS THAT PROVEN? He only stated the intel just as CLINTON and KERRY did in the past. Was it false then?
It's false when
you misrepresent the importance or conclusions of intelligence. The Niger assertions about yellowcake uranium were not only not taken very seriously when they arose (the British intelligence services indicated their authenticity was highly doubtful), but were later demonstrated to be based on forged documents. Nonetheless, Shrubco. directed Libby to indicate the uranium procurement was a KEY FINDING of the National Intelligence Estimate.
Was it included in the NIE? Yes. On page 24 of the document. The key findings are bulleted on the first page. That's like compiling a list of offenses for Charles Manson, and including the fact that he cribbed answers to math tests in the 8th grade, then writing an essay on Manson, where the key point is : Charles Manson-CHEATER! and never addressing the mass murderer point.
Is it false information. YES, when it's misrepresented and misdirected. The intent of the "declassification" of PORTIONS of the NIE, essentially designed to rebut Wilson's findings (at least, according to Fitzgerald's filing) was to counter the assertion that Cheney had cooked the intelligence and misrepresented the threats (in other words, to counter the truth).
Telling a lie of omission (leaving out the valid intelligence and characterizations of the administration's justifications as unreliable and unlikely) is just as bad as overt lying.
You claim our national security wasn't harmed or threatened by the leaks? How do you figure? The information leaked was the basis for mounting a unilateral invasion, absent the authority (legal or moral) of the U.N. Our national security is threatened when the administration permits 23 members of the Saudi royalty to fly out of the U.S. on September 12, 2001 (when virtually every other civilian aircraft, including traffic helicopters was grounded by the FAA) without submitting to FBI interviews. The fact that some of them had contributed money to four of the hijackers was explained as random charity distribution, but not followed up.
This administration misrepresents its own actions (always on the positive side) and misrepresents and attacks those who differ (even when they started out as loyalists, but dared to tell the truth about the emperor's new clothes. Ask Richard Clarke (career counterterrorism advisor, advisor to Reagan, Poppy, Clinton and Shrub. Oh, BTW: Also a registered Republican). He called the 9/11 attacks on the money. He tried to get the administration to look at reality, rather than what they preferred to do, and his thanks was getting shit-canned.
Once someone teaches you to read (or offers to read it for you) pick up a copy of Against All Enemies (which is, btw, part of the president's oath of office. He's supposed to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the u.s. from all enemies foreign and domestic. At this point, I'd settle for one out of three.
SNAP!
Well said. Unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears.
Like all cons, JPN has been conditioned by the administration's practice of: "If we tell the same lie often enough, people will think it's the truth." He needs some serious de-programming before he'll accept reality.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Marli--Adolf had his take on that as well....
"The great masses of the people…will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one"--Adolf Hitler
JPN--Wir wissen schon dass Sie alles verstehen, weil Sie einen abgfickte Arschloch Fascist sind.
Sieg Heil !!!
Buwaaaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaa
absent the authority (legal
absent the authority (legal or moral) of the U.N
F&#$ the UN
Since I only have time to pop in and out and write small bullet points I pick and choose as I do... That's my CHOICE
You don't have free choice anymore.
Didn't you read your weekly Nazi Youth Newsletter?
Dumbya outlawed free choice.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
God, I crack myself up.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Just like.....
....Bushbaby and the neocons.
"absent the authority (legal or moral) of the U.N
F&#$ the UN"
Then tell Bushbaby to quit. Pull us out. But....remember that the ORIGINAL JUSTIFICATION THAT DUMBYA GAVE for sending troops to Iraq was to ENFORCE UN RESOLUTIONS AND SUPPORT INTERNATIONAL LAW.
That was before the UN decided not to give him the go for war, then he said FUCK the UN, and went ahead with what he wanted to do all along.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
so the UN resolutions
against iraq really didn't mean anything did they?
Ah-HA!
Ah-HA!... So you're pro-CHOICE then!
A G
name one
Name a democrat that declassified documents to discredit critics and then lied about it then lied about lying about it...I can think of one, but maybe you can make something up or call me a socialist or something else very witty. I can't wait
Leaky Leahy................
Leaky Leahy................
"Leaky Leahy"
Took responsibility for what he did. Like I said, it doesn't make it right for Bush to LIE. Man, JPN, you are pretty thick in the head. The sign that you are a Kool-aid drinker is that you can't even admit when Bush lies or makes a mistake. Is he your Messiah????
He's not the messiah....
He's Caesar. All hail Bush!! Or maybe that should be "Heil Bush!!"
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
You keep making those NAZI
You keep making those NAZI comments... But you are still alive so you must be wrong.
Well, even the Nazis......
...weren't "The Nazis" in 1934. But they had become "The Nazis" by 1937. And came to full flower by 1945. When we killed them.
It's lookin like, oh, say....1936 right now. Good year...Olympics, Jesse Owens....Barak Obama?
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
If is looks like a Nazi, sounds like a Nazi, smells like a Nazi,
You do the math.
"But you are still alive so you must be wrong."
Gee JPN, are you suggesting that Nazis such as yourself would kill lil' old me? Oooh, I'm scared.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
hitler
didn't open up the concentration camps right away. everything takes time.
He only took responsibility
He only took responsibility because he was caught just like Doc in his SOCK Sandy B.
When a mistake is made I say so unlike you all. When something is done that I don't agree with I say so.
For me to admit anyone lied I NEED TO SEE THE PROOF. NOT SOM LIB WHO SAY IT SO MANY TIMES THEY BELEIVE IT"S TRUE...PROOF MATTERS.
I'm probably wasting my time here,
considering you don't have a pair large enough to check the replies to your ignorant posts. However, as long as you are speaking about ONLY taking responsibility after being caught, here are some more examples for you: Randy "Duke" Cunningham, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, (VERY soon to be) Tom "The Hammer" Delay. Obviously, I won't be holding my breath for a response.
bush said he got good intel on iraq
he said that after he admitted he shouldn't have included the niger lie in his state of the union speech.
You're right...
Leahy leaked info to reveal the truth. Bush leaked info. to support a lie.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
OK,,, THAT MAKES THINGS
OK,,, THAT MAKES THINGS BETTER NOW....
Oh, JPN
The only liberals who have done anything even remotely similar to what Bush has done is the LBJ Administration and getting us involved in Vietnam, which many of us liberals knew this Iraq fiasco would turn into. Of course, you supported the Vietnam war, and you thought it was a good thing.
Bush lied to get us into a war, he manipulated and falsified evidence to convince Americans and the Coungress that war was needed to protect the American people. Well, many of us were not fooled but enough were still frightened by the threat of terrorism to be swayed. Now cooler heads are examining the recent past and realizing what Bush has done. Now the approval of Bush is in the upper 30's.
He has repeatedly lied and mislead the U.S. public and the majority realize it. I was just looking at the most recent Rasmussen Poll. 40% of americans surveyed strongly disapprove of Bush. This is a staggering figure. Not only do people dislike him, the realy dislike him, many hate him. The number that somewhat approve of him is 20% and only 24% strongly approve. Now Rasmussen has been that most pro Bush poll among polls asking this question for a very long time so its statististics are slightly slanted in Bush's favor but none the less those numbers are horrible.
What is the primary reason people dislike Bush? He is a pathological liar. He is also a corpratist. He appears not to give a rats ass about the American people. Despite what you say about Clinton, the country was doing well under his administration. He had very favorable approval ratings up untill he left office. The only thing that the can be discredited for is he is an adulterer.
The issues of adultery and treason are not even remotely comparable unless you are living in a Monarchy, and then only the wife's adultery. Bush has committed treason. You are right that he has not been charged or convicted of any crimes dealing with the Plame investigation but that is only a symptom of Bush's treason. His conduct before and during the war in Iraq is what is truly treasoness.
He has been a God send for the Islamic terrorists. The Iraq situation is the best thing they could ever hope for. It gives them a rallying cause and brings them more and more supporters. This notion that keeping our forces in Iraq will protect us is nonsense. It did not protect Europe from terrorist attacks did it? His actions have weakened our nation and he did it for the profit of the rich. He is sacraficing the U.S. so his corprate buddies can make another billion dollars.
He has betrayed us all.
To everyone else, JPN is the quintessential example of why the republican's live by this moto, "Be thankful for the fools, but for them the rest of us couid not succeed". Mark Twain.
But for people like JPN, fools whose heads could not be cracked by one of Bush's nuclear bunker busters, the republicans could not be in office.
We must remember two things, the average IQ is 100 that means about half of the country has an IQ below that, most of them are probably conservatives.
Almost 40% of Americans still approve of the job Bush is doing. There must be something very wrong with our society if there are some many people who are utterly blind to reality.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
"OK,,, THAT MAKES THINGS BETTER NOW...."
Good. I'm glad I could clear that up for you.
You DO understand the difference, right? You DO have a concept of right & wrong, right? You DO think rationally... Oops, my bad.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
others leaked so it's ok for bush
third grade.
Adult diapers, anyone?
In response to clausen1, I think the Dems should initially raise taxes when they take office to foot the bill for Georgie-porgie's Depends bill so he can use them to take care of his leakage! ;)
Paragraph Breaks PLEASE! [a humble request]
At the risk of offending half the posters on this forum... Is there any chance posters could include a few paragraph breaks here and there? There is a LOT of material here and it's MUCH easier to scan when well written.
Seriously, there's plenty of good content here I'd like to absorb, but 500 word paragraphs with 50 word run-on sentences are virtually unreadable without stuggling. Proper punctuation helps to convey the ideas as well.
Don't worry about gramatical "rules"... better too much than too little. Don't be afraid to hit the "Enter" key. If you have the slightest pause in your thoughts, hit "Enter"!!
Your ideas will be clearer and more widely read.
More efficient communication can only help our cause.
Please don't beat me up.
A G
P.S. SOELLING DOESN'T COUNT.
P.P.S. This will be cross posted to get my humble request out.
Lies, Schemes, and More Lies
Now this administration has to spin more lies to cover-up the other lies, and the media is more than happy to comply with it.
This so-called threat in Iran appears to be just another lie which is not only being spread by the republicans but also by the democrats. They are using similar propaganda which they used to invade and occupy Iraq, but now it’s Iran.
The rhetoric of these two parties goes to show that they are really just different wings of the same party. These parties only represent the interests of the ruling elites. The two parties only differ on the tactics they want to take in order to bomb, or invade, and occupy. You don’t hear any debate about why the US should not be in Iraq in the first place, because it is against international law, and it is immoral to go and kill other people for corporate profiteering.
This guy Norman Ornstein, who appears as a regular guest on the Al Franken program, is a conservative, and seems just like all the other political hacks that were beating the drum beat for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but now it's Iran. He talks about the correct way to take military action, but not why military action should not be taken in the first place.
And this whole thing with Iran is being really blown out of proportion, since it is perfectly legal for any nation to develop nuclear energy if they want to. It is the US who is constantly developing new types of nuclear weapons that they want to use in warfare, which needs to be looked at.
Helen Caldicott, Four Minutes to Midnight
In 2002 Helen Caldicott returned from Australia to - once again - help build an anti nuclear movement in the US. The so-called end of the Cold War had made everybody complacent.
Now, thirty years after Helen Caldicott first appeared in the US and became a charismatic speaker and tireless organizer she says that matters are worse now than they were then.
They are worse because the old weapons are still in place, worse because they're building new nuclear weapons, some intended for use in space, worse because the US violates the major arms control treaties, worse because the US is now threatening the preemptive use of nuclear weapons, and worse because very few of us know these facts.
Helen Caldicott founded the still thriving organization Physicians for Social Responsibility and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.
She also talks about how those involved with the military industrial complex are the new robber barons.
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=11391&nav=...
Now Helen Caldicott is someone who Al Franken should have on his program, if he is really serious about having an intelligent discussion on this topic.
What a big con job this all is. And unless Air America starts presenting the real alternative view on these topics, and not just a better way to be imperialistic, Air America will also be part of this con job.
We must also remember that even if the democrats get back in power, many of them still owe their souls to the corporate money machines that will put them in power, so they must also not be trusted.
The ruling elites, who really control the policy of the US. are looking for another administration to promote their imperialism, since this one has been so badly discredited, so the new administration whether it be democrat or republican has to be viewed with extreme caution, especially when they begin beating the war drums.
Ralph Nader talks about this on these program at the below websites
On October 11, 2004 Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo appeared before a standing room only audience of over 2000 at UC Berkeley's Zellerbach Hall. They point to the overwhelming world-wide consensus regarding the US war on Iraq. From Europe to Africa, Asia and Latin America, the war is condemned
while the two presidential candidates debate how to wage it more efficiently.
Whatever the outcome of the current election, the issues raised by Camejo and Nader are vitally important for our future domestic and foreign policies; among them reasons for the demise of US democracy, the electoral rules that leave us with a dysfunctional two party system, growing corporate power, global warming and the impending end of oil.
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=10296&nav=...
In early 2005 Ralph Nader began a 10 city tour to stop the war and end the occupation of Iraq. Undaunted by the outcome of the 2004 election he presents a passionate critique not just of Bush but of the democratic party and launches a grassroots movement of a million committed activists that demands a complete pull out of troops and corporations from Iraq within a 6 months period.
Ralph Nader was recorded in Seattle in January of 2005
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=12068&nav=...
And whether or not one believes that 911 was a covert operation, by the neo-cons, it is still necessary to think about and ask some of the question that have been brought about , how and why it happened.
A Professor of Philosophy of Religion and Theology, Emeritus, at Claremont School of Theology, David Ray Griffin is the author of: The New Pearl Harbor- Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9-11; and: The 9-11 Commission Report- Omissions and Distortions - A Critique of the Kean-Zelikow Report.
David Ray Griffin lists nine myths propagated by the Bush administration and the 9-11 Commission Report and systematically lays out his critique. This is a compelling introduction to the key events of 9-11 and provides answers to some the questions people might have, such as: "Would the government do such a thing?" "What would be their motive?" "Was the 9-11 commission impartial?"
David Ray Griffin also describes a scene in the emergency operations bunker under the White House on the day of 9-11. Secretary of transportation Norman Mineta testified that Dick Cheney was aware of an aircraft approaching the Pentagon but did nothing. Mineta's testimony was omitted from the 9-11 report.
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=17470&nav=...
And other programs
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=result&action=series&series=TUC%20...
Leaking CIA operatives' identities helps how?
I'm confused. I can't see the connnection between identifying a CIA agent and helping to counter public skepticism. How did knowing that Joe Wilson's wife was a CIA agent help the administartion make the case for going to war? Did anybody in the administration really think this thing through? It just seems like a piss poor plan that was poorly executed. If anything, though, it definately fits into a pattern of behavior.
You got that right
The situation in Iraq is proof enough of that.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
Well.......
What they were trying to do, was to discredit Joe Wilson by making a claim of nepotism on the part of his wife. If she worked for the CIA, and the CIA sent him to Niger based on her recommendation, somehow his story is less believable (at least to ditto-heads everywhere).
Even if that were true, what makes it more laughable is the rampant croneyism (sic?) within this administration.
Now, now, you know that conlet....
....figgers dat knowin' any langwidge 'cept 'Muricun ain't paytreeotic. Don't taunt the con-let. They get depressed and curl up in the corner.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Can JPN really believe what he says?
I can not understant how JPN can be for real. His support for Bush is almost satirical. He seems to be the embodiement of everything liberals protray as the stereotypical neocon supporter. He displays complete and utter loyalty to our good King George and he sladers liberals at every possible oppurtunity. He seems to be well informed about the issues, yet he refuses to accept the truth about Bush. He isn't ignorant; so what must be the cause of his loyalty.
I suppose that party affiliation of his parents had a huge impact on him and turned him to his conservatism but even so, the cold hard facts generally ware away at such blind loyalties as people gain more experiences. People learn that no one is perfect especially no political party, yet I can see no sign of any disapproval from JPN. I liked Clinton's policies in general but there are a few things I disapproved of, such as NAFTA. It seems impossible for someone to truely agree with someone all the time, everyon is different after all.
So what could possibly be the source of JPN's fanaticism. One source of loyalty is religion. If one is preached to day in and day out by everyone around them with no discent they soon take what they are saying as the gospel truth. This leads to religious fanaticism does it not? Yet, JPN is from NJ, how could he have been placed in an environment where he was not exposed to other ideas? His parents would have to be very enthusiastic republicans to make some one like JPN. He may have been subjected to extreme political socialization. Yet, this does not seem to be enough, there must be other contributing factors. I cannot imagine what could cause such a radicalization.
It puzzels me, could it be that JPN and I are somehow different. Are we not both logical, rational human beings? Could something in JPN's life have really affected him in such a radical manner.
I live in the wonderful state of Nebraska, not known to be a liberal stronghold, so I know a lot of conservatives. JPN is not typical of the people I know. Many of them are upset because Bush isn't being a true conservative. Those that like him generally seem to be rather uninformed or if they are informed they buy that bull that Bush spews but I don't think I've ever met someone who agrees with Bush whole heartedly. I've never met anyone like JPN. Something is different about him. He must have had intense political socialization for sure but I cannot believe that that alone could contribute to such radical feelings about Bush.
Those are my observations about JPN, based on what he has posted. I propose several possible answers to the question of this post.
1. I could be concievable that JPN does not really believe what he is saying. It could be that he enjoys being an antagonist, and posts on this site for enjoyment. He may be a liberal playing devils advocate or he may be a conservative who likes to make liberals upset. I don't think he is liberal personally, though. Just something about the way he words his threads. Though I think entirely possible that he is a conservative who just likes to antagonize liberals even if he doesn't agree with Bush all the time.
2. He is a satirist. I dought this possibility, but it could be concievable. He may be a liberal acting like a conservative to portray conservatives in a poor light. I dought this primarily because JPN's arguements don't seem satirical, they are some extreme that they are almost satirical but I think a satirist would be even more radical and less intelligent in his posts and yes that is possible.
3. JPN could be sincere about his beliefs. JPN could just really be blind to reality. I mean it is possible, I'm sure there are people who are really that way out there, I've never met someone quite like JPN but hell, anything is possible.
4. The final possiblity, he might just be insane. Who knows what could posses a person to be so radical as JPN. I mean even is the case of Nazis, at least they had a charasmatic all be it insane leader to follow, Bush is just a blundering moron.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
Hmmm... multiple choice question.
I pick either 3 or 4. 1 & 2 give him WAY too much credit.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed citizens can change the world."
Check out my blog:
http://truth-for-a-change.blogspot.com/
Hitler....
...was also a blundering moron and wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as he did had he lived in any country but Germany of the 1920s/30s. The right guy in the right place at the right time...to do wrong things. He enraptured a very technically competent, well educated, dedicated population. Sounds familiar.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
I don't think the U.S. could ever be like Nazi Germany
Inspite of all the things that the Bush administration has done that are similar to the Nazis, there is no way it could happen here, well at least not as long as we have free elections. Now that I think about it we could really be in alot of danger of that happening but back to my point. Hitler was more than a moron, he was completely and wholely insane. They only thing he had going for him was he was an excellent orator. He could enthrall people with his speeches, amke them blind to reality. The fact that Bush's approval ratings are in the toilet shows that there is not way he could ever be the next Hitler.
The biggest thing protecting something like Hitler from happening in the U.S. is the constitution and the paranoia of the founding fathers. Thank God our counry was founded by people who feared dictatorship so much. With all of our values engrained in the ideals of freedom I think our country is rather resistent to people like Hitler. As long as the constitution is protected we are safe. What is troubling is the Bush administrations atempts to circumvent the constitution. But I don't think they have a snowballs chance in hell of turning our nation in to Nazi Germany. You might disagree but I am an optomist.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
Good, ......
...that you're an optimist..the young usually are, they haven't been disappointed as many times.
READ THIS RE: NAZIS/FACISM in US:
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded
that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
\8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Hmm
That is a pritty damning post. A lot of parallels between that definition and our current administration, yet I do believe strongly that the neocons will not be able to bypass our constitution and 200 some years of democratic tradition. Though you do make a good point that the U.S. is beginning to fit that description pritty damn well.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
Re neocons bypassing the Constitution
Quanta,
They're already bypassing the Constitution: "disappearing" people..illegal taps..claiming unlimited presidential power..loading the judiciary with judges who are displaying a disregard for our rights/liberties and/or bypassing the courts altogether..tearing down church-state separation. A little fear and intimidation is unfortunately working on too many voters....
Rick
so far
they have only violated the Constitutional rights of sand blacks, so white america doesn't care.
Well, actually...
if by that you mean, the totalitarian state that executed millions of Jews & millions more gypsies, homosexuals, mentally retarded people and other "undesirables", I'd agree.
There are enough parts there to consider, however. Hitler was anything but a moron. He had an ability to read the public sentiment, identify the desire to pick scapegoats and in a scary parallel, align himself with other people who had more substantial reputations than he did, in order to gain stature. What made Hitler powerful wasn't so much his oratory skill. Early on, it was his endorsement by Hindenberg that legitimized Hitler. Eerily, like Shrub, most educated people thought he was a jerk and didn't take him seriously. Out of work, defeated Germans liked his message, "We didn't lose the World War, we were set up and betrayed by the enemy within". Sound familiar? Kinda like how the democrats scuttled the immigration reform bill, that was written, sponsored and endorsed by the Republican majority, but which they couldn't bring themselves to vote for. Know how they say "Follow the money" ? This is the money as far as the Repubs are concerned: Follow the blame. Find out whom they fear most, by whom they choose to vilify for their own inadequacies and grubbiness. If anything, it's all too much like the Nazi formula of distraction from the major topics at hand by setting up straw men to be knocked down by an angry, ignorant populace. The intellectuals laughed at Hitler and said no one ought to take him seriously. They learned to their own detriment that they were wrong.
That said, I agree we aren't in danger of becoming Nazi Germany anytime soon. That's the lunatic extreme. More frightening, is the prospect of not being the U.S. any longer, and having to dig out from under too much shit to be able to quickly remember what that used to mean, and ought to mean again.
I disagree.....
...Hitler WAS a moron. The victories of the Nazis were accomplished at the tactical level and were due to competent officers and motivated and well trained troops, and usually came IN SPITE of bad strategy, but all came to nothing because of very poor stratigic decisions, and most of them came from Hitler.
Hitler purged both the political ranks and the military ranks of people who could have been very useful, and replaced them with sycophants who just wanted to keep their jobs, and heads.
Most things Hitler got involved with were balled up in short order...the development of the Jet, the decision to stop bombing the RAF airfields in favor of hitting London, etc, etc.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Actially
I am inclined to agree with dave. I guess I mispoke when I said Hitler was a moron. The man was rather bright early on, until his mind was rotted away by drugs and his insanity enveloped him. It wasn't until then that he began to do stupid things. It wasn't that he was always a moron, drugs and insanity took their toll on him.
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
One man's moron...
is another's lunatic. Believe me, I'm no Hitler fan. His genius (such as it was) lay in identifying soundbites and easily identifiable icons around which people would rally. The very facts that Rock cites: The cosmopolitan stimulation of Berlin, the compulsary educational system (that's where we get Kindergarten) and such actually contributed to his ability to make people feel their heritage and birthright as ubermenchen was betrayed.
No doubt about it, being a corporal in the German infantry and being wounded once at the Somme and again at the Marne did not a strategic genius make. He managed to undermine most of his best tacticians (e.g., Guderian, Rommel, Jodl) and thought himself a modern day Julius Caesar.
Thank God he was as inept a military planner as he was. It doesn't mitigate the fact that his ability to exploit the sore spots that divide a people against themselves, while uniting them against everyone else was applied very successfully. Let's hope it isn't too inspirational a precedent.
I'd like to think that you're right, but....
The Patriot Act authorizes Haliburton to build detention centers IN THE US. NSA spying program. Bush memo's dealing with how to extend his term beyond '08..... Hope you're right bro'.
With luck
and the dedication of alot of people, the democrats will retake the house and we can put a stop to the current trend. And hopefully after 2008 we will be able to reverse it. However, I honestly do not believe we could ever decend into Nazi like fascism, I personally feel that even if the neocons completely rig the elections and they gain complete control of the government and the worst that could possibly happen happens, the country will not become a fascist state. I think because the majority of Americans would never support such a thing the country would revolt before such a thin could happen. Or at least I hope the country would revolt before that would happen. Like I said though, I am an optomist. God help us all if I'm wrong though.
Could you imagine the Nazis with a nuclear arsenal? *shiver*
"It was believed afterwards that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
I hope......
...you're right, my young optimist. But, remember that the Germans were the most educated people in the world during the 20s. German was the language of medicine and science (shared with French for science). Berlin was one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, a hub of literature, politics, and music. In ten years, it was the heart of darkness. NEVER underestimate a demogogue on a mission.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Never underestimate Bush
War with Iran soon. I never would have thought this megalomaniac would do it, but the ball is rolling. Look at the talk now and compare it to the runup of the Iraq war.
The ball....
....might hit a wall....the upper ranks of the military is not going to get behind this until Iraq is wrapped up or until the troops are mostly pulled from there. They are loyal to their men and would be reluctant to go to Iraq now. I think you would see mass resignations, or a sick-out of sorts.
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.