NSA Quashes Justice Dept. Probe; Has Database of Domestic Calls

Well, I can't disagree with you when it comes to this board, good points and articulate ideas are buried under statements of which side is a bigger booger. But, while you are right, there is a difference between wiretapping and data mining that, at least in my opinion, isn't the point. The point is that all of this is done without any oversight.

Too many of the pundits out there try to shift the argument. They don't debate the merits of warrantless wiretapping or data mining millions of phone conversation without a single entity to look over the NSA's shoulder to make sure they aren't looking for patterns of political leanings or social activities. They sidestep the issue and launch into long diatribes about how the left doesn't want to protect America.

I can't speak for the left, they will have to speak for themselves, but as an Independent, I can say that I am deeply shocked at the brazen way in which this Administration sidesteps the spirit, if not the actual, law.

To understand the point, all you have to do is try and answer the following question. Put Bush aside and answer this, 'What is to prevent President X from using the information the NSA is gathering to look for more personal information, patterns of behavior, political leanings, social affiliations, etc.? All of which can be gathered from looking at patterns of calling, let alone wiretapping itself.

No one is suggesting that the NSA not look for terrorists, but someone has to be looking over their collective shoulder to make sure they don't abuse the power they have been given.

Egads! An intelligent conservative - may-be he can steal his party back.

I find exactly the same lack of understanding of nuance, paranoia, and villification on conservative forums... go figure. Small world, huh?

It's refreshing to hear a conservative suggest that the current administration and congress might just be less than perfect after all. Good for you.

Personally, I love to bash Democrats every chance I get. It reassures me that I am not an ideologue. It proves my thoughts are my own (ask me how Hillary turned $1k into $100k in the AR commodities market almost overnight - I figured out how it was done!). Further, I closely watch ALL news and opinion sources, including conservative outlets.

If you can't say something good about the other side and something bad about your own side, you're not seeing clearly.

But enough about how swell I am. Let's talk about you. How swell do YOU think I am? Seriously, to the question at hand:

I am extremely uncomfortable with a government in bed with major, near monopolistic corporations for the purposes of domestic surveilance, especially with a government with a rubber-stamp legislature and a hand picked judiciary. Indeed, a government that has shown not just a willingness, but a penchant to utterly disregard the law.

This scenario has been played out in the past and the results were not pretty.

It's not so much WHAT they're doing but HOW they're doing it. Without proper oversight by some entity with an adversarial relationship to the executive, we risk FAR MORE than a few suicide bombings.

I do not share a willingness to allow our system of checks and balances and the rule of law that has served us well for over two centuries to degrade into a state of corporate fascism that purposefully or unwittingly subjugates our people into servitude for the unconscionable enrichment of a privileged few.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"

Have a Happy

A G

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

the terrorists are running rings around them.

like the fbi spying on maryknoll priests. they are doin' a heckuva job.

too much freedom and democracy here in america is not a good thing. then why do we have over 2400 body bags coming back from iraq?

when they take the pill popper off the air.

because they are afraid of the boss, white america. most white americans think it's ok to violate the fourth amendment. they don't even know what the amendment says.

Bush says they're only monitoring calls with possible terrorist connections. So that means they can apply that to *all* Americans? That's absurd. Maybe they'd get better results if they weren't so busy demoralizing the CIA, putting unqualified cronies in security positions, and actually intended to hunt down terrorists. They're doing everything *but* hunting down terrorists. It seems they're more interested in finding out what their political opposition is up to.

"If you're a harmless Joe, you have nothing to worry about this program". That's the great conservative response to the curtailment of civil liberties and rights: "If you're innocent, you shouldn't mind if we go into your home without presenting you a warrant, or even notifying you we were there". Not so fast.
Let's review a little history (especially since HVDC22 sort-of complimented me on my historical knowledge). Lenell Jeter was a guy working as a computer technician in Texas. During his lunch breaks, he liked going down to a local pond and feeding ducks. I'm sure it wasn't because he is African-American. It must be because feeding ducks is inherently suspicious, that a local called the police to check out the stranger flinging bread on the pond water. They did, took a description and got Jeter's name.
Subsequently, a number of fast food restaurants were held up about 40 miles from where Lenell Jeter worked, at the time he was working. Didn't matter too much though. Jeter roughly matched the description of one of the perpetrators (he was a bipedal hominid, with a head, trunk, two arms and legs and opposable thumbs), and since his name was already in the police database, Lenell Jeter was arrested.
Several co-workers were with him at the time of the robberies, and were prepared to testify on his behalf, but Lenell's attorney plum forgot to call them, and whaddaya know? Lenell Jeter was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. If 60 Minutes hadn't gotten involved, he might still be there. As things turned out, he was exonerated, BUT the D.A. insisted that he still be registered as a felon, and required to meet with a parole officer. That idiotic notion was also dropped.
A guy going to work, feeding ducks and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A "harmless Joe" by most standards. Didn't have a worry in the world, did he?

The notion of the government deciding whether or not you ought to be worried, whether or not you did something, might do something or might just not have good ideas is terrifying. Couple this with the "anecdote" from the Housing Secretary, about the
"brother with a disconnect" whom he'd refuse a contract because of the applicant's dislike of Bush. "Why should I give him the contract? So he can use funds to campaign against President Bush?" What's wrong with this statement? Are federal funds contracted for governmental work supposed to be used for campaign purposes?
I've received federal funding for research, and there are pretty tight restrictions on how you can spend it. I guess if you're going ot use the funds to campaign for HIS guy, he figures that's a-ok. Makes him sound more like a bagman than a cabinet officer.

There is no compelling evidence of the need for domestic spying. No one is suggesting that "terrorists" ought not be pursued. What happens if state governments seek access to the database? For instance, what happens if the Attorney General of South Dakota wants a cross-match between state residents' phone numbers and those of abortion providers in neighboring states to see whether anyone is conspiring to avoid their anti-abortion law. Conspiracy across state borders is a federal crime. Nothing to worry about? Glad you live in a glass house Cleo. I'll stay in my brick structure with the shades drawn, thanks.

And how many terrorists have we caught so far? One, or is it two? And those were caught through legal means - getting a warrant first!

would you post your bank account number since we have nothing to worry about?

That's easy to say if you are of the right color, religion, and political affiliation.

Well said Cleopatra...but I believe your comments are falling on deaf ears...The idiots on this site are narrow minded morons.

"If you are a harmless average joe, you have nothing to worry about this program. "

The german public pre-WWII had the same
exact attitude.

Have you been fitted for your brownshirt yet?
Are you blonde-haired, blue-eyed?

Keep goose-stepping hun. You *might* make
the list that doesn't get herded into a cattle car.

That's good, dick. Brief, yet pointless.

Keep up the good work.

Have a Happy

A G

Rocklib you surprise me....Sometimes I scroll through most of the bull shit on this site, but usually stop to read yours…You have made sense in the past…But to agree to the treasonous remarks made by starphat and to suggest other ways to hurt our governments ability to perform their work….now matter if it was in jest…I am disappointed in you….In one way it makes you look as if you are “jumping on a bad wagon

Nixon is his HERO, and he must live true to his legacy.

But, didn't Nixon leave office in shame.
Didn't Nixon authorize bugging the Democratic Headquarters?
Didn't Nixon lie, too.

TrickyDicky, ur doin a hellofa job!!!!!

What a dick.

Yes you are da man for the enemy….So its like this huh…You want to organize a group to make calls to different numbers so as to slow our governments ability to track terrorist…Let me see…Doesn’t that sound a little like treason…You my friend should be reported…and I am going to contact the administrator of this site to see if we can find out who you are.

.......not, if it's the USPS. I don't know if they are creating a data base from the info., for just looking for suspicious stuff and acting on only that data.

"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
William Gladstone, 4-time Prime Minister of Great Britain.

I'm not conversant in Arabic, but my research shows this. "DATABASE" is not the original meaning and probably not what was meant by the term. It seems like an unlikely definition (remember, words have more than one definition, and you have to use the one that makes the most sense, both contextually and culturally).
"Qaa`idah" (قاعدة) means "base," "basis," "foundation," "fundament," etc. with pretty much all the connotations those words have in English. It comes from the root referring to sitting down or descent (the same root as a common word for "chair"). It can refer to a literal foundation, to something fundamental in a more abstract sense (e.g., "qaa`idat al-lughah," "the basis of the language," refers to Classical Arabic grammar), or even to a naval base ("qaa`idah bahriyyah").

It can also mean "database." "Qaa`idat an-nusous al-qanouniyyah al-muta`alliqah al-hay'aat at-tashree`iyyah al-`arabiyyah" is "The database of legal texts pertaining to legislative Arab constitutions/conditions."

There's considerable disagreement over the source of the name "Al-Qaida." Al-Qaida is more an ideological affiliation or wannabe mass movement (think "vanguard of the proletariat") than a concrete organization, and its "members" refer to the movement with at least a dozen different names. One of its more popular names is "qaa`idat al-jihad" ("the foundation of the struggle"), which tends to get shortened to "al-qaa`idah" ("the foundation," "the base," etc.).

The CIA funneled money and weapons through Pakistani intelligence to the Mujaheddin. They never gave money to Osama or Al Qeada. Osama was considered a rich playboy by the Mujaheddin. While Osama was in the Mujaheddin, he won the respect of his comrades by donating his money to humantarian charities like hospitals and schools. After the war against the Russians was over, he formed Al Qeada and then became part of the taliban. I wish you people would get your facts straight. It appalls me that conservatives and liberals alike don't have a true understanding about the facts regarding this issue.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)